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Jim Ballou's "Monitor"


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All I can add to the discussion is my doubts that the alleged "factory" records are entirely accurate. I know for a fact that a small number were sold into Canuck LE. I have heard two different accounts. One that a small number went to the Northwest Mounted Police, the other was that the contract was shared with the RCMP.

I will mention this due to having purchased and personally saw cut one in the early 90s in Canada from a retired Mountie. nearly mint condition with factory paperwork, target, colt mags in the LE hardcase. It was alleged as a Mountie gun, I see no reason to doubt that.

 

Subsequent to that I was offered two others by different folks up there in similar condition. Both of those were Deacs

Supposed to be one in a museum up there in a NWMP display.

 

Exports ?

Had a buddy email me pix in the late 90s of two rather rusty R75s in a Cuban police armory. No clue on provenance. He was Canadian as well, was buying arms up from the government.

 

I have wondered whether Colt may have built psuedo R75s on 1918 receivers using left over bits and thus in records they appear as straight 1918s but I do know first hand the Canadians had a small contract apparently unreflected in so-called records.

 

As far as Jim's notes:

In my opinion they should be released as like Legends of the BAR or some such

I find the cleansing of even myth a bit detestable. Offer a disclaimer but don't hide it away.

Jim sought this crap out and well yes a bit of it was crap it should be regarded as gun lore...I really don't need some kid to purify it for me in some stupid Coffee Table book

 

both have a place, one as a reference and the other as just entertaining reading

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I've had this similar photo for sometime now, have gone over it with CJL a couple times, believed it to ( probably) be the Argentina 7.65 mm Monitors in the group. A R-75 sitting there and a couple WWII BARs. Notice the guy's leg there next to the pallet, in fatigues & boot. Argentina military ?

Mass of rare parts.

 

 

OCM

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I took the photo. No, not argentina military...boot or leg anyhow. I don't know the specific path the guns took. I never noticed the guys foot, there were other people in the area, but I wasn't paying much attention to where they were standing. I know for sure the guy was not standing in Argentina, because I was not in Argentina and he was apparently standing next to me? I don't know CJL (I don't think?), but I also don't think he was in the room? LOL

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Course there's a few in this pile. Sad how the FBI treated them (worse than Hillary's emails)? Or maybe they did not get them all and these were left on the clandestine pallet?

 

So these are former FBI guns? Did you take any serial numbers down? Thanks!

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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CJL wasn't there, we had been BSing about the photo online, mainly the Monitors sitting there. Always a mystery where the photo came from and who took it, where the guns went etc. We had discussed if you ran into a barn and found this pallet sitting there, what would be the legalities to deal with them. Devastating I would imagine.

I wouldn't be a hog about it, just the R-75 and 3- R-80s is all and letters to Sing Sing......

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If the assumption is that they all went to the FBI (I don't know, just basing that on someone else's post) then they sent them off to a foreign country and look how they were taken care of? Or as others have stated they made quite a few more than what seems to be documented? I'm not educated enough on the history of them to even speculate. They were not in a barn, though they sure do look like it. Sadly you are correct, devastation is the only way they would see home soil, but if so I'd be sure and save you the pieces you're interested in. That's not hogging, we're just conservators of history! I did not have time to access numbers on them since there was a lot of stuff to see and this was but one small pile. Sadly the deal never went to completion, but I suspect they haven't moved?

 

As to the foot, it could be that of a real SHTF colonel. Well decorated, serious jungle combat vet with a hole in his neck near his spine at the base of his neck. Quiet, low key, nice guy but as you travel you could see he gets the respect of a 3 star general, an honor for me to be next to even though he's not USGI, he is an ally and trained here on occasion. I can't really go into much more detail than that, he never took his boots off?

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I remember Jerry Prasser at Recon ordnance telling me he was hoping to get a batch of Monitor kits from out of country. Maybe same batch??? who knows.. but maybe you could give him a call and say I know where this interesting pile of guns is.... (even anonymously if its a super secret location) maybe he could get them legally imported into the US as parts kits. Somebody should save them or at least parts of them if possible. Or call Sarco....

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I understand there are a small number in the Dominican Republic as well in an armory. I have aways suspected this image was from the DR, the Cuban survivors appeared in much better condition.

 

This all still begs the question just how accurate the generally accepted numbers actually are.

I wager not valid at all.

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On pg. 94, "Record indicate.. from 31 to 40, the FBI purchased 90, and others accounted for about 20"

 

This is referring to domestic sales of the R80 specifically.

 

In Jims's book, Pg, 95-100 references over 800 gun sales for "Colt Commercials". This is likely what you are seeing in this picture. They could be customized with different trigger groups, calibers, barrel styles, and so forth. You are likely seeing many of these options on that pallet.

 

South America had about 1000 of these guns on record. You can check out who bought how many under what name.

 

If these were handled anything like the Colt Thompson was, (1000's made off the books) there was likely many many more of these floating around the world.

 

A better question is if these piles of rust are useful or functional at all (pitted?), and if new parts should be created in their image instead.. (yes)

Edited by Scrambles
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If these were handled anything like the Colt Thompson was, (1000's made off the books) there was likely many many more of these floating around the world.

 

Please provide evidence to substantiate this statement about Colt Thompsons.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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Jims's book, Pg, 95-100 references over 800 gun sales for "Colt Commercials". This is likely what you are seeing in this picture.

In the photo I was referencing, there are I believe M1918A2s sitting on the pallet also. R-80s, R-75s also of course. I was told the same story Dan is referring to about Recon attempting to purchase the " mystery " pallet of assorted weapons. Sadly all these stories seem to go nowhere about the " mystery" pallet of wonderful parts a lot of us could use.

I do have a hypothetical question : Say you ran across this pallet sitting in a boneyard in Miami ( or anywhere) , what are the legalities of taking ownership in whole or parts. I'm guessing it's a big pile of BATF poison .

 

OCM

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Apologies Dave, perhaps I was mistaken with the Colt name, but in "Trouble right away" we can see there is quite a few "AutoOrd prototypes" that got away without numbers. Some on the Honolulu.

 

Fortune Ryan also seemed to turn a blind eye to things, mentioned several times. They (Colt) claim to have kept the best record, yet I wouldn't be surprised if they were "too" perfect.

 

Also, I was made personally aware of two Savage guns that made it out of the factory, in the white, with no serial stamps. They were sold by a hobbling old man at a gun show many years ago, claiming to be an prior employee.

 

The point being is there's good chance a large number of things went "missing" and is still out there. Hidden from other MG enthusiasts out of shame. (largely from prideful rich old men with nfa collection/investments, ahem).

 

I hope I clarified my statement. Apologies for tarnishing colts reputation, but as said. Finding one or two in the future that skipped the final paperwork doesn't surprise me at all, and neither should you! Remain speculative. We don't know everything,

 

As far as those parts, if in FL, yes. Have at it. Should you bring in the receiver, no. Should you bring in the barrel, no. Can you? Well yes, you could. Customs isn't watching for it. It's a tube or brick to them. (Truth hurts)

 

Let's see some nice 80% and someone here turn some finned barrels. Maybe Dominic? He's still around and does amazing lathe work! Let's give the guy some business. Maybe someone has old drawings or specs on these finned barrels for reproduction. The R75a and unique parts should be documented and drawn. The rusty parts are exciting, but what will you do with them..? Polish them with some 0000 steel wool, oil and run it pitted? I get it, provenance.

 

But this is a largely rusty story that nobody (really) must care about.

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Since I'm in production of a R-80 ( semi) these parts would be gold to me , yes assuming they aren't trash, but even so, I'm but one of the few that care about the rusty story.

This is a fun thread to write about but I'm afraid it's a moot point . About as likely as finding Baby Face Nelson's Thompson.

Lucky for me I have some of the key Monitor parts in hand and some good advice from others.

AS/B4 ( an old Dillinger signature)

 

OCM

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I'd be down for some of those rusty parts as well. . .

Again junk abounds abroad

 

Now importing:

First of all most have a wrongful attitude that things need to be torched.

Actually variances are granted all the time

for example you can still often saw cut so long as a central chunk is omitted from the kitted up gun. Nothing really needs to be all slagged to crap however it is far easier to just follow the supplied destruction docs than to ask for a simple variance.

 

Barrels became a bit crazy per GW Bush

the devil here is these are barrels that are AGR, American Goods Returned

Some argue AGR is outside the Bush era ban but to argue it means serious money

Now if you found a mess of new BAR bbls overseas never installed, they can be lawfully imported currently. Bowman is doing it with SG43 and Yugo MG42 new old stock barrels right now. Buyers must sign a "Sporting use" statement though.

 

My own view is Colt was never very honest about things and just a crap pile of things items such as "lunch box" specials in many firearms companies were well known for decades.

At Winchester it was kinda seen as an employee perk up into at least the 1920s

Colt and S&W were not a great deal different in this practice

bunch of crap flowed out of Springfield Armory too.

 

Just a different era

 

Take care you don't impose current attitudes against the past as there was little to no regulation back then.

Edited by JimB
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Johnsonlmg41 says he took the photo, might start there ?

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  • 3 years later...

I took another look at the photo provided by Johnsonlmg41. I believe this shows some of the 50 Colt automatic rifles purchased by the Dominican Republic in 1933, mentioned by Ballou. I see at least nine (9) R80 Monitor rifles in there, four are easily visible from their Cutts comps, the rest I think I identified from the handguard and absense of the magazine well cover. Can someone see more? They bought 50, nine seems like an odd number -- you'd expect at least something like 10 R80s, the rest perhaps R75s.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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