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Question About C&R Expiration


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I slipped up and sent my renewal in for my c&r only a month ahead of expiration. I called the ATF and they say that it's in process. They supplied me with a letter that allows me to use it for buying for another six months while I wait for renewal.

 

He question that I haven't been able to find an answer to is: Hypothetically, if my C&R were to lapse do my C&R machine guns have to be sold? If not, will I be able to shoot it still with just my stamp?

 

Thanks

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The C&R deals primarily with the acquisition and disposition of the firearms, not possession. The Form 4 tax stamp is valid until it is transferred to a new owner. However, your C&R also allows you to travel with the class III weapons without filing a Form 5330. Without your C&R, you will need to read the rules for that form and follow them. Edited by TSMG28
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An advantage of letting your C&R lapse is that you can 'destroy' your C&R book. I have never renewed my C&R. I let it lapse and then reapply. Yes, i typically go a month or two without having a license. But I don't have to worry about a 20-year old minor mistake coming back to bite me like many FFLs.

If I need to travel with C&R MGs during that short period, getting the Form 20 approved only takes a few days by fax.

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C+R licenses are not a business license and thus are not subject to the inventory compliance inspections that regular FFL licensed businesses must accomdate by law. Further, if ATF needs for some reason to see a C+R licensees’ record book of aquisitions and dispositions, the licensee can take it to an ATF office where the meeting can be conducted. ATF does not have the same legal privileges of entry onto the premises of a C+R as they do to enter the premises of a business FFL. Regular FFLs must identify their business hours for the purpose of designating at least one business day when they are open for ATF to have access to the business for official purposes.

BTW it is very easy for ATF to determine, if needed, if the destruction of a bound book was deliberate or not. Keep that in mind.

I had a fire which did destroy two bound books close to completely and the compliance inspector was very thorough in ascertaining the truth of the cause of damage and required me to reconstruct the information in the books from ATF records, guns in inventory and private and other sources.

Don’t be stupid!

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An advantage of letting your C&R lapse is that you can 'destroy' your C&R book. I have never renewed my C&R. I let it lapse and then reapply. Yes, i typically go a month or two without having a license. But I don't have to worry about a 20-year old minor mistake coming back to bite me like many FFLs.

If I need to travel with C&R MGs during that short period, getting the Form 20 approved only takes a few days by fax.

Can you post the fax number thx

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Do ATF rules allow the destruction of any required bound book? Surrender, yes, but looks like the book has to be kept for 20 years from the date of the last transaction recorded in the book, if I'm reading the rule right.

 

I tried to post an excerpt from the regulation, but copy and paste is not working for me on these boards, for some reason.

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Do ATF rules allow the destruction of any required bound book? Surrender, yes, but looks like the book has to be kept for 20 years from the date of the last transaction recorded in the book, if I'm reading the rule right.

 

I tried to post an excerpt from the regulation, but copy and paste is not working for me on these boards, for some reason.

 

C&R licensees are not required to turn in their A&D book.

 

Are licensed collectors required to turn in their acquisition and disposition records to ATF if they discontinue their collecting activity?

No. Licensed collectors are not required to submit their records to ATF upon discontinuance of their collecting activity.

[18 U.S.C. 923(g)(4); 27 CFR 478.127]

 

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-licensed-collectors-required-turn-their-acquisition-and-disposition-records-atf-if

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  • 3 weeks later...

The C&R deals primarily with the acquisition and disposition of the firearms, not possession. The Form 4 tax stamp is valid until it is transferred to a new owner. However, your C&R also allows you to travel with the class III weapons without filing a Form 5330. Without your C&R, you will need to read the rules for that form and follow them.

 

What if you own some NFA items that are not C&R (MP5, non C&R Thompson, suppressors)? If you have a C&R license can you still travel with them w/o filing the 5330?

Edited by Scott Smith
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The C&R deals primarily with the acquisition and disposition of the firearms, not possession. The Form 4 tax stamp is valid until it is transferred to a new owner. However, your C&R also allows you to travel with the class III weapons without filing a Form 5330. Without your C&R, you will need to read the rules for that form and follow them.

 

What if you own some NFA items that are not C&R (MP5, non C&R Thompson, suppressors)? If you have a C&R license can you still travel with them w/o filing the 5330?

 

This would be nice but I doubt it since they are not covered by C+R rules.

Will watch for a more informed opinion.

Edited by lightguy
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The C&R deals primarily with the acquisition and disposition of the firearms, not possession. The Form 4 tax stamp is valid until it is transferred to a new owner. However, your C&R also allows you to travel with the class III weapons without filing a Form 5330. Without your C&R, you will need to read the rules for that form and follow them.

 

What if you own some NFA items that are not C&R (MP5, non C&R Thompson, suppressors)? If you have a C&R license can you still travel with them w/o filing the 5330?

 

 

The simple and correct answer to that question is NO with regards to machine guns.

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A 5320.20 is not required for interstate temporary travel with a suppressor. Non-C&R guns, SBR, etc would require a 5320.20 regardless of you having a C&R license. The C&R license only applies to items that are considered C&R per ATF.

 

Ron

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Roscoe and Ron, thanks for the info. That’s what I thought but wanted to make sure.

 

 

Scott, you may want to download a copy of the NFA Handbook, it is free and answers many questions NFA owners may have. If you want a hard copy you can take the file on a thumb drive to a printer such as FedEx Office or Office Max and they can print a copy from the file.

 

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/national-firearms-act-handbook

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Roscoe and Ron, thanks for the info. That’s what I thought but wanted to make sure.

 

Scott, you may want to download a copy of the NFA Handbook, it is free and answers many questions NFA owners may have. If you want a hard copy you can take the file on a thumb drive to a printer such as FedEx Office or Office Max and they can print a copy from the file.

 

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/national-firearms-act-handbook

Thanks for the link. I have a hard copy that I bought from from Dan Shea back in the mid 90’s somewhere in a box in the basement...

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The publication at Roscoe's link did not come about until 2007-ish. You may have a "Machinegun Dealer's Bible" which is long out of print and tough to come by now.

 

RE: the C&R question - for whatever reason, congress exempted silencers and AOWs from the interstate permission slip 5320.20 in 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(4). The collector's license affords zero privileges outside C&R firearms. (old gun = cash & carry regardless of geography, not an old gun = 4473 & FFL transfer if from out of state). You can find numerous internet posts that you have the option to pick and choose which acquired/disposed C&R firearms go in your A&D record, but those comments contradict law & regulation. If you choose to go that route, you might consider asking the posters for a reference point from ATF that supports their interpretation. I have never seen such a document, but if I knew everything I would be buying lotto tickets. The "optional record keeping" would be present if your license is held by a legal entity (LLC/Corporation) in which case you could go the 4473 route for a personal acquisition or use the license for a company purchase.

Edited by The Lone Ranger
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Lone Ranger...you kind of lost me with this statement>>>. (old gun = cash & carry regardless of geography, not an old gun = 4473 & FFL transfer if from out of state)

 

Cash and carry with a C&R?? You are not talking about an NFA item right??

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Point of clarification: There is no GCA license available that allows one to bypass the registration process imposed by the NFA. The two worlds intertwine at times but are independent of one another. NFA is registration and taxes while all age restrictions, interstate movement and transfer requirements, and prohibited categories of possession (convicted felon, illegal alien, fugitive, etc) all come from the GCA. They apply to NFA regulated firearms due to the definition of "firearm" in the GCA which is broad enough to include them. (any weapon designed to expel a projectile or the frame/receiver of one, a silencer, or a destructive device)

 

TD: your standards are low, sir, but thanks for the misguided vote of confidence.

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Yes cash and carry for C&R - not NFA

 

Ron

 

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/db/db394de7b4d0e84d98d58498e8ddcfafd2af21fe9e8745b2c07abc3027351f85.jpg

 

 

 

 

What a country ! :D

Edited by lightguy
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The publication at Roscoe's link did not come about until 2007-ish. You may have a "Machinegun Dealer's Bible" which is long out of print and tough to come by now.

 

You're right; the copy that I have is an original Machine Gun Dealers Bible that Dan was selling back in the 90's.

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