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1921/1928 on Gunbroker


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#21 huggytree

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 03:16 PM

More than 3 versions to collect
Colt 1921
S1928
1928 a1
M1a
M1

Each is different. My s1928 has a different finish quality vs a 1928a1. Just like a colt has its own finish quality

Colts aren't worth $40k + for me. But to some they are worth $60k for some really nice examples.

I paid $5k more for a m16 for a different roll mark. So to each his own. Glad to see lots of choices for sale right now. Seems like more colts for sale lately than ww2 guns
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#22 MrBill

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 06:40 PM

The value for Colt Thompsons in my opinion is very much like real estate in a resort area. Locals (old timers on the board) are in shock and amazement for what the asking and selling price for the listings is. Other locals got into their real estate not too long ago but are riding the inflation wave and enjoying it. Personal wealth for certain people is robust and a 40K or 50K purchase is possible. And there always be the chicken little's who failed to pay the outrageous 5K  twenty years ago and can only mourn the new buyers getting in the market. How high can this Thompson market go? Curtiss would know.   


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#23 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 06:42 PM

 


I don't know what it is, but Colts don't seem all that special to me.

 

I just don't value their Colt-ness the way the rest of Thompson collectors seem to.

 

To me it's a peacetime gun with a higher grade fit and finish than the WWII guns.  Is that worth 2x as much?

 

Shrug.

 

I wonder how many other Thompson fans feel the way I do.

 

I believe you're the first...

 

David

Attached File  DTM.jpg   24.25K   2 downloads


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#24 buzz

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 02:11 AM

I don't know what it is, but Colts don't seem all that special to me.

 

I just don't value their Colt-ness the way the rest of Thompson collectors seem to.

 

To me it's a peacetime gun with a higher grade fit and finish than the WWII guns.  Is that worth 2x as much?

 

Shrug.

 

I wonder how many other Thompson fans feel the way I do.

 

I believe you're the first...

 

David

 

 

Suits me.

 

When everyone's thinking alike, then nobody is thinking.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ity_experiments


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#25 darrylta

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 07:45 AM

Buzz,

You may feel like you do, because you've elected not to own a Colt TSMG.

Try it, you'll like it.

Darryl


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#26 dalbert

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 07:56 PM

 

I don't know what it is, but Colts don't seem all that special to me.

 

I just don't value their Colt-ness the way the rest of Thompson collectors seem to.

 

To me it's a peacetime gun with a higher grade fit and finish than the WWII guns.  Is that worth 2x as much?

 

Shrug.

 

I wonder how many other Thompson fans feel the way I do.

 

I believe you're the first...

 

David

 

 

Suits me.

 

When everyone's thinking alike, then nobody is thinking.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ity_experiments

 

buzz,

 

I value your diversity of thought.  However, the allure of a Colt, in my opinion, and that of most others, is undeniable.  They are beautiful firearms with unmatched histories.

 

Believe it or not, I'm actually a proponent of challenging the status quo.  This is most apparent in the M1/M2 Carbine world.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com


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#27 buzz

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 02:33 PM

I think some of you guys misunderstand me a little.

 

 

I appreciate Colts for their fit and finish and their status as the original Thompson, but I don’t assign them the same value as the general marketplace does.

 

I think Colts are somewhat overpriced.

 

I think 28A1s, M1s and M1A1s are somewhat underpriced.

 

I think West Hurleys are somewhat overpriced.

 

 

That’s just me, obviously there are people out there who don’t like Thompsons at all and would rather own an MP5 or an M16.

 

To each his own, etc.

 

 

I disagree with the idea that Colts are “best” in every category.  That idea is not logical.

 

A gun doesn’t have to be the best in every category to be the most valuable.   COP derringers are worth around 3x as much as S&W Model 10s, even though they are a bizarre, awkward design and were a commercial failure. And the Model 10 is a masterpiece and an unparalleled commercial success.

 

So when some of you guys breathlessly try to promote Colt to the top in every category, I think it’s kind of pointless.

 

 

The M1A1 is the best Thompson design from an engineering standpoint.  It’s simpler and more robust than the earlier designs. 

 

Just like some boring $20 walmart toaster is technically a better consumer product, does better at toasting bread, than some $200 Sharper image infrared gizmo toaster. 

 

 

Also, an M1A1 that spent WWII in the hands of soldiers is more “historic” than a Colt that was in a prison armory.  i guess that is a debatable point but it's hard to top WWII as a historic event.

 

 

I find the lowly status of the M1 models among certain Thompson collectors to be perplexing.  It’s a fantastic weapon, completely deluxe and bad ass in every way.  It has the same built quality (or better) than the Garands and M1 Carbines that gun collectors worship so much.

 

And it was our primary standard issue subgun during WWII, which is near to the very pinnacle of gun collecting status.  Is there a more collectable subgun from WWII than that? 

 

 

I bought my M1A1 just for the heck of it.  The guy who sold me my Savage Commercial made me such a great package deal for the M1A1 that I couldn’t turn it down.

 

After I owned it for a few months, my engineer brain was forced to admit that the M1A1 is a better engineered gun than the 28. 

 

And also, since the M1A1 was re-imported from Europe and the 28 was in the hands of suburban police force, the M1A1 doubtlessly had a more interesting service life than the 28.


Edited by buzz, 08 March 2017 - 02:34 PM.

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#28 lightguy

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 05:39 PM

Arthur,

 

You seem to think that if a gun is used in any sort of warfare anywhere, or finds its way in any quantity into any military inventory, that makes it a “wartime” gun. 

 

I think that idea is absurd.

 

I think that guns made during wartime for use in the war are “war production”.  I think that guns made during peacetime are peacetime guns.  I’m silly that way.

 

I don’t think we’re ever going to agree. 

 

 

A lot of people in general seem to think that a solid argument can be based on little nuances of semantics.  I think that approach is a flat waste of time, something to be avoided.

 

 

I agree that nobody is asking me to value Colts in the same way that other people do.  Nor is anyone asking me to parrot their opinions back to them.

 

It's irritating when other people disagree.  Or is it interesting?  i forget which.

 

 

I'm kinda sorta on your team.

IMO much of the value is in the TAX stamp.

If not for that someone (Colt ?) would retool the 1921 and have at it for $6K a pop.

Yes the machining and rarity is nice but is it worth $20,000 over an M1 ?

The Colts are almost too valuable too shoot. The ones I were looking at seriously started at 40K.

What happens when a squib round goes off ?

There goes 10K plus IF you can get a replacement barrel.

GI ? Get one for $100 and off to the races again.

 

Dillinger and all them were special but Normandy beach was moreso.


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#29 ppgcowboy

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 06:29 PM

Buzz, I own a Colt because I can. I saved for many years to do so. I will work my way through the Thompson line up and own them all eventually. To me, they are all precious and things worth possessing. I like to own things of beauty, at least I have my girlfriend who owns me of that. If I were married, I would be Thompson less today, I do not miss my wife.
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#30 ron_brock

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 08:11 PM

I really don't get the point of the M1 being better engineered than an M1921A.  In over 20 years of firearms development, I would hope that someone could improve on a design.  There is a big difference between innovating and development.  Maybe I am sensitive to this point as I have been in both roles.  The M1 design was a further development on the original invention.  We'll give you a mousetrap, you tell us how to make it as reliable and deadly for less money.  Far more engineering went into creating a submachine gun in the teens than creating a stripped down blowback gun in the 40s.  Especially since there was already blowback guns in the World to base your design improvement upon.  

 

Would I rather carry an M1 in WWII than a Colt Thompson, yes.  Would I rather buy two refinished M1 Thompsons today or one 90% Colt, I'll take the Colt.  Even if Colt were to produce M1921As brand new and they could make a profit at $6000, would original guns lose their value, nope.  Has the bottom fallen out of the market of original Colt 1903 pocket autos or 1911s since they are now available from Colt?

 

Ron


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#31 Gio

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 06:37 AM

Ron,

 

Right on brother. I agree with you on all points.

 

Frank


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#32 lightguy

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 06:49 AM

I agree it is pricey, but is $40k about average for a nice '21 lately?

This one sold a few weeks ago.

 

http://www.gunbroker.../item/614599003

Did Not transfer.

Midwest Tactical has it again but off GB for $37.9K

http://www.gunbroker.../Item/624156098


Edited by lightguy, 09 March 2017 - 06:50 AM.

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#33 Sandman1957

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 08:34 AM

Buzz,

  I agree and disagree with your arguments.  I agree that guns with documented history are more valuable than ones that do not.  Colt Chopper's gun is the example there.  I disagree that "wartime" production adds value over documented use.  Here I am speaking specifically to Colt Thompsons,  These were designed at the end of WWI but did not get into circulation until the early to mid 20's.  The Marines had them before WWII; in Haiti, Nicaragua and China.  They killed people with them in all three places.  Read up on some of the China Marine history and mystique.  Bill Lee and others including Chesty Puller, Red Mike Edson, and others carried Thompsons and 1918 BARs in those conflicts and put them to good use.  Bill Lee himself was awarded 3 Navy Crosses.  

 

   These guns were "aquired" during "peacetime" and don't fit your "wartime production" standard.  However these guns stayed with the Marines as they were deployed around the world and were used during WWII.  Aug 1942 had Colt Thompson's on Guadalcanal with the 1st Marine Division and the Marine Raiders.  Colt Thompson's were also in China.      Bill Lee buried the blish locks on their Thompsons and bent the barrels on all the 1918 BARs when they were ordered to surrender by the Ambassador to China.  The Marines were taken prisoner and spent the ENTIRE War as Japanese prisoners.  From Dec 8th (7th) on the US side of the Date / Time difference.

   For me, because of my personal relationship to Bill Lee, if I could get a Nicaraguan SN Colt Thompson that would be the pinnacle for me.  I would gladly trade my best Colt Thompson for a well worn, beat up Nicaraguan used gun.  Plus pay additional money...  Those guns are out there, I just don't know who has them or I would have already asked for first refusal when they move.

 

   Guys that grew up watching John Wayne, Vic Morrow, Audie Murphy carry the '28 like the '28.  More folks will like the M1s now that Band of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan have rightfully so, featured them as well.  

 

    However the "premium" on the additional history for a specific SN will always make that SN more attractive to "some".  To imply that Colts didn't kill Japs and Germans in WWII is not correct.  They did, but not in as great of numbers.  The Marine Raiders had Springfields and Enfields on Henderson Ridge and Colt Thompsons.  They had few if any Garands.  

 

    Bottom line.  The fit of the Colt is premium.  It was the "first to fight".  The fact that it was not wartime production (to me) is not even a reference point.  The M4's and M16A2's that we killed all kinds of folks in Iraq and Afghanistan in 2001 and 2003 were not "wartime" production.  But they were Colts and when War broke out, they were put to good use.  (Don't waste your time arguing politics over fighting.  We in the military don't pick when and where we fight.  However when we are there, and told to do so, its game on).  The weapons we have been issued regardless of when they were manufactured are the ones that then have "documented" history.

 

   The best points are, we all like different things for different reasons.  We all have different reference points and we are all "right".  I don't have to like what you do and vice versa.  Just don't get overly confused on "wartime" production.  The guys the Marines killed with Colt Thompsons that do not fit your "wartime" production in Haiti, Nicaragua, China etc are dead dog dead and if you can document those SNs to the guns, I would pay an "additional premium" for them.  Certainly TO ME, a beat up, heavily used Marine Corp Thompson is far more valuable that Barney Fife's Thompson that sat in Mayberry and never fired a shot in anger.  (I made that up, don't look for the episode).

 

Happy Snaps for all to enjoy.  

 

Bill Lee holding my daughter Megan Lee in 1994.

Attached File  Col Lee 1931 and Now With Megan Lee.jpg   124.77K   29 downloads

 

China Marines 1939 -1941ish

Attached File  China Marine TSMG.jpg   40.03K   33 downloads

Attached File  China marine TSMG 2.jpg   56.68K   31 downloads

 

Both these guns may not have been "Wartime Production", but I would take them over an M1 or 1918A2 BAR any day

Attached File  China Marine TSMG BAR.jpg   55.19K   30 downloads

Attached File  China Marine TSMG BAR 2.jpg   65.59K   31 downloads

Attached File  China Marines 1939.jpg   252.03K   27 downloads

 

Bill Lee as a Marine Gunner in China 1939 - Dec 8th 1941 when taken as a POW for the entire war.

Attached File  Col Lee in China.jpg   120.34K   27 downloads

 

Soooo, who's right.  It doesn't matter.  Buy what you want.

 

 However if you run across a USMC Nicaraguan Thompson, call me first!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

Attached Files


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#34 darrylta

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:34 AM

Sandman,

Great stories, great guns and great insight.

Thank you for your service,

Darryl


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#35 Motorcar

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 11:42 AM

Thanks Sandman, Semper Fi from the grandson of a WW2 Pacific Marine.


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#36 buzz

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 07:19 PM

Great responses.

 

I agree with the responses for the most part.

 

I would agree that the 1921 represents an innovation and that the M1 represents merely a refinement of an existing product.

 

I don't buy the argument about the Colt being more historic than the M1A1.  We'll just have to disagree on that one.  it's subjective anyway.

 

 

A lot of people refer to the M1s as a "cheapo" version, which is really inaccurate.  There's really nothing cheap about it, it's a super heavy duty and super deluxe gun.

 

It's accurate and reliable and easy to shoot well, it lacks for nothing.  It's an outstanding war weapon.

 

One video on youtube has the reviewer saying that the M1A1 is the "the bottom rung on the Thompson ladder."

 

Why would the most robust version be the "bottom rung"?   Last time I checked, less expensive + (slightly) higher performance = better.

 

 

I think people confuse cost of manufacture with quality. 

 

Consumer market guns are "better" when they have a higher finish and more features.  But military weapons are purchased for pure utility. 

 

Military weapons are graded on performance in combat and the dollar cost to produce that performance.

 

 

It all depends on your viewpoint.  What's "better"?   1955 Cadillac convertible or a 2017 Ford escape?  They're both better in their own way.

 

As a collectable, the appeal of the Colt is undeniable, it's a piece of magnificent industrial art.

 

It's beautifully made and it has every possible refinement they could offer on a gun.  It's like if they made a weapon out of a Rolls Royce.  What's not to like?


Edited by buzz, 10 March 2017 - 07:20 PM.

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#37 buzz

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 07:24 PM

Something very interesting happened about a year ago, maybe two.

 

M1 type Thompsons were selling around $18k and 28A1s were selling at around $23k.

 

But all the sudden, the price of M1s and M1A1s jumped up to about equal with the 28A1s.

 

I think it kind of went unnoticed but it definitely happened.  I remember it because there were people buying west hurleys for more money than USGI M1A1s and I thought that was really weird.

 

then all the sudden, boom.


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#38 Sandman1957

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 07:49 PM

Buzz,

   I agree both Colts and the M1 / M1A1s (Military thompsons) have history, I was just addressing the "Wartime production" piece.  Alot of guns are acquired by the military between wars, and used in the next war.  I was just trying to highlight that the Colts although acquired during peacetime have wartime use by the US in multiple conflicts around the globe.  I also don't mean to imply that as a group, the Colts aren't necessarily more historic.  For that I default to the individual serial number.  Colt Chopper's SN will be worth far more than a PD gun, or a wartime gun SN dependent.  

 

  If we knew where  Audie Murphy's Thompson was (whether an AOC /Savage 28 or M1) it would be far more valuable than the gun that never got issued, or just sat on guard duty at the gate in the USA.

 

   I do think the recent movies where the M1s and M1A1s are being spotlighted have had a positive impact on the price of those guns.  They were the improved versions.  Their shelf life would have been longer had not it been for the grease gun.  

 

  The "better" part of each one is in the eye of the beholder.  

 

As an aside, it is interesting to note hollywoods impact on guns.  I think hollywood had an impact on Colt Snake guns following the walking dead series.  Its stunning how much they have gone up in value since that show came out.    Neat to see Fury where the M1 Thompson and greaseguns were used.  Also the MP-44.  Great hobby / passion isn't it!


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#39 lightguy

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 09:25 AM

Something very interesting happened about a year ago, maybe two.

 

M1 type Thompsons were selling around $18k and 28A1s were selling at around $23k.

 

But all the sudden, the price of M1s and M1A1s jumped up to about equal with the 28A1s.

 

I think it kind of went unnoticed but it definitely happened.  I remember it because there were people buying west hurleys for more money than USGI M1A1s and I thought that was really weird.

 

then all the sudden, boom.

Must have been 3 years.

You know..... like the day after I started looking for a Thompson :D

 

As far as rarity perhaps there ARE more M1's out there.

What I observe is that there are more 1921s and 21/28s for sale on Gunbroker than M1's.

One can pick up a super M1 for about half the price of a well used Colt.

At one time I thought I wanted a NIB Hurley until you all talked me out of it. ;)


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#40 huggytree

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 09:36 AM

Most m1s are refinished and non numbers matching

While most 28's are police guns. 1/2 seem to be original finish and numbers matching


I don't know why you would pay equal for a m1 refinished as you would for an original 28

But I have also noticed m1 prices being equal Not sure if they sell for equal though

My 28 was bought a bit over a year ago and they were mostly selling for $24-26k About the same as today

Ruben was the first I saw list m1'S for $27k. I don't think he has sold any though. They have been there for 8-10 months??

Edited by huggytree, 11 March 2017 - 09:36 AM.

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