Hyman S. Lebman, Gunsmith To The Outlaws
Posted 04 October 2015 - 05:31 PM
Posted 04 October 2015 - 07:06 PM
Might double check if these were typical XX Thompson box mags , not custom Winchester 1907 351 mags. This is probably in the FBI Dillinger file, from St Paul. I have the files, but it's like 56,000 pages long. Maybe our FBI pal, Larry Wack will chime in. He seems to get this stuff fast.
I have a list of stuff Dillinger and Billie Frechette had stored in the tiny apartment- reads like a department store.
Posted 05 October 2015 - 08:17 AM
I agree with Sandy on the mags being Thompson.
If a 20 rd mag for the 351 Win ever exited I would love to see a picture of it.
There were numerous times gang hide outs were raided and guns confiscated and yet I have seen more pictures of UNICORNS than 20 rd Winchester mags.
Posted 05 October 2015 - 08:42 AM
Well, that would explain never having seen one. What about 15-rounders? I imagine a full auto .351 rifle like Lebman made for the gangs would empty out a 10 round mag pretty damn quick.
On another note, did I read elsewhere in the forum that you (Sandy) owns Homer Van Meter's .351 that was recovered at the Lincoln Court Apartments?
Posted 05 October 2015 - 08:59 AM
I will with hold comment except to say that Sandy will get a good chuckle on this rumor.
Posted 05 October 2015 - 10:00 AM
I don't think you read that anywhere as I do not own Van's 07. These 07 Winchesters seem to pop up everywhere with the outlaws. I've owned a couple including the newly converted Lebman one from Idaho. ( Tom has indicated he was going to produce more ) .
The FA Lebman one recovered in Tucson, I've suspected, may of been a one off example in full auto. Probably ( logically) picked up by gang member Harry Pierpont in San Antonio, on his way to Tucson from Florida. He already was carrying the 07 he took from Peru, Indiana , October 21, 1933.
Good possibility, Dillinger never even pulled the trigger on a FA 07.
This is a bit of outlaw theory as they never signed statements of such operations.
I'm going to contact Larry Wack, he's a great resource for stuff like this. See what turns up if he's up to it-
Posted 05 October 2015 - 10:28 AM
I apologize - it was in the Winchester 1907 Value topic from January 2014 - where I misinterpreted something Jim C wrote about using the Books Case. Anyway, that's why I asked about it - would have been very cool. I would love to hear what Mr. Wack knows about any of this. Thanks!
Posted 05 October 2015 - 11:45 AM
Also, there were two of the Lebman modified 1907s recovered by the Tucson police. The first photo shows shortly after being captured. You can see they still have the Thompson forearms attached. The second shows a photo from the 60s (I think) and the forearms are removed but there is one loose on the table. In the first photo, both the Lebmans have the magazines inserted and the one on the right looks longer than a factory 10-round to me.
Posted 05 October 2015 - 12:23 PM
Never seen the second photo, good research, kicks out the one off theory ( maybe). Wonder why the grips are off on both ? The FBI & the Tucson PD had traded the guns back and forth for display, which means the FBI may have the second one still . Tucson has two on display, one non modified.
Funny story, the FBI kept the Auburn, Indiana Thompson ( # 8946), after the Tucson PD loaned it to them for display. Gordon brought that up to Auburn and a little battle ensued, Auburn got the gun back, Tucson lost out, their loaned gun was sent to the original owner. One reason why the Lebman one there stays there forever and is engraved as the Tucson PD. I guess the original owner would of been Lebman.
Oddly, in the photo taken outside the court house in Tucson, the arresting officers are holding the weapons recovered and does not "appear" to have a second modified 07. I have a clear shot of it. These are hard to read sometimes.
I did find the FBI report on the Van Meter guns, a Thompson in a leather case (?) 1 clip and a C drum loaded. A Winchester Repeating Rifle in 351 and 13 clips 20 shot capacity. See what Larry turns up, maybe something different. My guess they made a mistake on the capacity as a 10 round capacity is an odd ball. ( just a guess)
The first photo, I'd have to look at it again, I've got it buried somewhere in computer files.
I think I have two hand written receipts from Frank Eyman, one of the arresting officers, on the Tucson guns. I think there is only the two 07s , one Lebman, other the Peru gun, so why is there two Lebmans in your photo.
The Tucson PD files were lifted many years ago, so no records-
Yet another outlaw mystery as usual.
I'll double check tho-
Posted 05 October 2015 - 12:28 PM
I stand corrected, in the photo of the officers out front there are TWO Lebman conversions, one is hard to see the front grip but it is there. No un-modified 07s.
So, why is there a un-modified 07 in the Tucson display now-? I have no clue. Means the FBI probably has the other one they are keeping like the Auburn Thompson.
Larry Wack indicated to me the one common display of the guns in front of the three officers were probably ones just brought out for evidence in the inquest. It only shows the one Lebman 07.
Posted 05 October 2015 - 02:26 PM
I have seen a couple of photos of '07's with 20 rnd. magazines. Let me see if I can figure out how to add a photo and I'll cut and paste them--but they were in threads on this forum-so if you back through the '07 topics you should find them. Never seen a 20 rnd. in person.
Might the elusive "factory 20's" have been intended for the military aviation contracts from World War 1--either by France or our fledgling flying corp. for use prior to the introduction of machineguns on scout planes?
Regarding Van Meter's 20 rnd. magazines, I wonder if those might have been BAR mags?
Posted 05 October 2015 - 02:32 PM
I had always heard there were three 1907s in total - two modified and one not modified - 2 taken from the Hotel Congress and one from a car - but I've never seen all three together in a photo. I wonder if the FBI got a (permanent) loan from Tucson on one of the Lebmans? I was able to determine that the second photo above is from 1961 so Tucson still had them at that time. Funny that it seems there weren't any other Lebman-modified 07s other than these two? At least there are no photos that I've seen.
I bet Tucson PD was ticked about the Thompson they loaned out and never got back!
Sorry for all this activity - I became obsessed with the Lebman modded 1907s 6 years ago after the Public Enemies movie, then went through some fun times and put all this on the back burner, and now I've become obsessed again.
I appreciate all the info.
jl7422 - the photo thing was difficult for me as a card carrying Luddite to figure out. I had to attach them first before I could post them. The image icon didn't work for me and in fact froze my screen when I tried to use it..
Edited by levallois, 05 October 2015 - 02:35 PM.
Posted 05 October 2015 - 03:25 PM
At the Dillinger arrest at the 2nd Ave house in Tucson, they found 6- 351 clips ( shot size not listed) 1- 1907 Winchester Self Loading 351 # 46051, 1- 1907 Winchester Self Loading 351, no numbers ( removed) .
The 46051 is the one in Tucson now, so I assume both were the Lebman models & FA.
This is from a hand written receipt from the City of Tucson.
Do have a Dillinger listed one # 41604 but not 100% on where it was, maybe St Paul ?
Jl7422, would not be BAR magazines, that was Clyde's weaponry. BAR mags are huge guys, Barrow had a huge mess of them in the death car, I had one from the car, that was part of the evidence file in Shreveport.
Double checked Henwood's book, nothing at all about xx 351 mags, not even in variances, army, France, nothing. But ?
Posted 05 October 2015 - 03:55 PM
This is the only photo I can find of a larger than 10-round mag. Could it be two 10-round factory mags welded together? The slant of the base of the magazine looks factory to me. This was posted on this website.
Posted 05 October 2015 - 04:26 PM
That's the photo I was thinking about--I also seem to remember seeing a picture of one (in what appears to be a museum rack) with a canvas spent-shell catcher over the ejection port. It too might have the oversized mag. A configuration an observer might use in an early World War One dogfight.
Posted 05 October 2015 - 05:15 PM
Larry Wack came thru with some interesting information-
The Dillinger gang had also stolen a Winchester 1910 SLR 401 from the Auburn PD. These had the 4 shot only mags, where it is ?
Van Meter's Winchester SLR was # 46190 and the Thompson had the numbers removed. ( St Paul )
The Lebman mini in 38 Super recovered from Dillinger apartment in St Paul was # 13585, had two XX clips with it.
The Police 07 shown could of been a magazine someone made for display or use. I remember this picture now. Really doubt the large magazines were factory. Henwood says almost all Police versions were ordered with the 10 shot mags. I guess anyone could of made them , why not.
Posted 05 October 2015 - 06:23 PM
Since Lebman made a high capacity mag for the Colt super 38, he could have made one for the 351, but if he did, what happened to it or them.
Posted 05 October 2015 - 07:14 PM
Lebman had to love doing this, making toys for the " boys" and getting high dollars for it, like a hobby that you are paid for.
And , according to Larry Wack's research, they stole a hammerless Colt from the Auburn, Indiana PD, in factory nickel, Jim C.
Edited by OCM, 05 October 2015 - 08:20 PM.
Posted 06 October 2015 - 08:35 AM
Didn't mean to imply that the magazine in the photo was factory but that perhaps two factory mags were welded together. And I think you're spot-on Jim about Lebman being able to make one of these. He was skilled enough. I'd give a lot to actually see one.
Edited by levallois, 06 October 2015 - 10:11 AM.
Posted 06 October 2015 - 11:41 AM
For sure Lebman could of made these, but still would like to see evidence that he did. Finding 6 351 magazines could of been 3 each rifle, high capacity ? Rick Cartledge told me Lebman made his own front grips too, no clue how he would of known this, other then some of the grips on the Colt minis look a bit homemade.
If I'm not mistaken, the 07 that Tucson loaned to the FBI, had no front grip installed , on display. This would of been the Lebman with numbers removed recovered.
Our Gun Hunter group ran across this FBI trading, basically by default, while searching all the Dillinger related Thompsons. S.A. Larry Wack ( retired) was part of the group and could dig this stuff out.
I've been to the Arizonia Historical Society Museum in Tucson, not far from the PD- They have Dillinger items, don't recall seeing any guns or mags, just a repo Thompson for display, BP vest, suitcase... etc.
Make one out of two 10s-