J Curtis Earl

[RoscoeTurner]

A number of folks relatively new to NFA, joining in the last 10-15 years, have asked who J Curtis Earl was when the name has come up in various discussions. The May issue of Small Arms Review has an article about the man you may find interesting.

[The Lone Ranger]

Having not read it yet, I will venture to guess it is the tip of the proverbial iceberg. Edited March 31, 2010 by The Lone Ranger

[Black River Militaria CII]

I like the way the author constantly hedges his bet that J.C. Earl might possibly have been an SOB, pending whether anyone else had any bad experiences with him similar to what he supposes/proposes in his article. Of course, it isn't right to speak ill the dead. I have always been fairly generous in my assessments of people in the NFA world who have contributed mightly to the hobby/profession by any of many different means and J.C. is no exception. Back in those days, there were quite a few unscrupulous characters in the infant NFA world, and they were all busy trying to get the better of each other.

I bought my first registered MG from Earl in 1970 after having been spellbound by his brochures. I paid way too much and received an original gun missing all the correct original parts, which were supposed to be there according to the sales pitch. It was a Colt 21/28 from the Sing Sing Prison guns that Earl purchased. It was outfitted with Savage and AO parts rather than the correct Colt parts. After I discovered this, I wrote to Earl and asked that I be able to trade the parts back to him for the Colt parts, as there had been a mistake, and included a copy of the letter he had sent me about the condition of the gun in which it said all correct, orignal parts. Of course, the Savag/AO parts are "original" parts, but he knew what he was doing. I could buy the parts if I wanted for about $500 at the time, an outrageously high price. As the months went by and I talked with other dealers, R.J. Perry, Fred Rexer, and others who clued me in about Earl's reputation and business practices. I also did buy the correct Colt parts for about $75 total from another dealer in GA, Roger Cox who specialized in Thompsons and had a good selectin of MGs for sale. The stories of such shenanigans were legion then and were repeated by all sorts of people who had dealings with him including many very well known and respected gun dealers, museum curators, collectors, here and abroad, etc.

I doubt the author will really address this aspect of Earl's character in the remaining chapters for many reasons, and he obviously was a good friend of Earl's and of his family, so his deference is understood. I continued to write Earl about various parts and asking prices, etc and having found other dealers whose prices were realistic and market, I never bought anything else from him. Earl was the most high profile of the dealers in the late sixties and early seventies and had a large inventory of MGs, but there were others who also had very large inventories, often with fare rarer and more interesting MGs than Earl had. R.J. Perry was one of thsoe who had some amazingly rare and unique MGs, incuding prototypes, one-offs, as well as low production numbers and mint guns.

I don't begrudge Earl as he was inspiring and was totally dedicated to NFA , but his often dreadful and unethical treatment of buyers was one of his most well known characteristics. Many of us were moths to his flames.....

 

Bob Naess

Black River Militaria CII

Edited April 4, 2010 by Black River Militaria CII

[Sarge]

A good friend bought a 21 Thompon from earl, based on his advertisements, while he was in Korea and picked it up when he came back to the States. Like you he got a 21 bbl'd rec and little else that was Colt. earl refused to make it right and wanted to sell him the parts needed. Like you he didn't bite.

I have been playing with FAs for 50 years and from the very first time I ever heard of this guy in Ariz who had lots of MGs to sell, I can't remember ever hearing anything good about him!

I always advised anyone I talked to not to deal with him unless they could go to Ariz and look at the gun in person.

Sarge

[colt21a]

I probably have one of the best stories of him. and the long lost interview tape before he passed on.{ and still have it}

 

we wrote back and forth from Danang and Okinawa.in 1971. still have the pics of a 1921a for $900.00 and the brand new in box Bridgeport drum for $50.00 funny thing since i was Marine over sea's. he was willing to hold a gun on my word.after the years sold him a new in mill's pouch 18 shot riot mags. a new in mills case C-drum. two Colt 21's. and five m1a1's. and a half of a 1918 Winchester B.A.R..and a complete spare parts kit.

{ and only bought a ak-47 mag from him for $50.00} had to have a mag with the gun...which is now probably at the bottom of lake Michigan.

 

or on the wall of the Chicago police Museum???

when i visited him in 1999/2000 he still had the mills case and drum and the riot mags and pouch. i had asked him why? after over 20 year's he said they are still new!

 

maybe I should contact the author.and give him the lowdown. it involves good old Roger Cox. Mike Rojak,R.J.Perry,Irv Kahn.

 

i always figured Earl was okay.just after all the years he became bitter, and decided to just say screw it.I am making money no matter what.

[ WE fought like junk yard dogs for year's}on some deal's.....then made up in 1999 when i moved to ARIZONA. life is way too short for ill will and enemies.

 

I still have his new collection of all his catalogs that he handed to me { no charge} in 1999

however it cost me a Chinese dinner later.

 

one thing you can say.he did it was there and done that.........for many many year's.and had a cool catalog, that everybody had with wd-40 stains, and rabbit ear pages,

 

some of us should have done half as much.Bill Helmer got me started. and Earl finished it.

 

best regards Ron/Colt 21a

 

 

[jcrowhunter]

I also had an encounter with J.C.Earl. This was in the mid 70's. I had purchased two parts kits and noticed the lowers had slightly different machining . These kits were M1A1's. I was curious why so I took one of the frames to his home in Phoenix to see if he could shed some light on my questions. At first he was pretty cordial. Showed me most of his Thompson collection and other guns. Then I don't remember how the subject changed but he asked about the numbers on the guns and paper work. I explained that their were no numbers or paper work as they were parts kits. No receivers.

That set him off!! He told me to leave immediately. I didn't understand but later heard he had had a run in with the ATF and must have been a bit paranoid. I still have a couple of his catalogs and a hand written personal note about another subject in my literature collection.

J

[Tetryl]

I never bought any guns from him but he always sent me a catalog and answered any questions I asked, he didn't use a typewriter or computer back then but always took the time to hand write everything out with a price next to it. I really enjoyed his catalogs.

 

And yes' they had tried to bring legal action against him by the authorities on at least one occasion which is why he became a little more cautious with people.

 

RIP J.C.Earl

 

Tetryl

[TSMGguy]

Old thread, I know.

 

I bought my first NFA gun from JCE in the early 1980s. It was a POS MP-38 for big bucks. Somehow, the fact that it was mismatched never came up in conversation before the gun arrived. I was too inexperienced and naive to ask, and Earl's Polaroid photos of the gun were pretty poor. For quite some time thereafter I referred to Earl as "the old horse thief".

 

I found myself in Phoenix with time to kill a while later. I decided to rent a car and, after calling ahead, drove out to JCE's Scottsdale residence, fully meaning to chew him a fresh one face-to-face. Instead, I was treated to a marvelous personally guilded tour of Earl's entire collection as well as the extensive inventory of what he had for sale.

 

I found Earl to be pretty gruff. He'd probably screw you if he got the chance, but it would likely be at least partially your own fault. In his defense, he always did what he said he'd do. He taught me a valuable lesson: NEVER make an expensive purchase without examining the goods beforehand. Thereafter, I always first did my homework and then hopped a plane for a personal inspection, as I do to this day.

Edited March 3, 2014 by TSMGguy

[timkel]

I still have a Curtis earl catalog. Very informative at the time. For whatever reason I never did business with him. Probably because his prices were higher then the market at the time. I also have Fred rexer and others catalogs. The prices seemed quite high at the time +$200 tax. There was no Internet back then, only shotgun news and SOF with class 3 ads. Edited March 3, 2014 by timkel

[Robert Henley]

I asked about him maybe a couple of years ago after seeing his name come up, and someone attached to a post reply an article on him which was very informative. I'll have to read the article referred to by RT.

[timkel]

Curtis Earl catalog cover and back page promoting MG's as a wise investment.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/20140303_104903_zpswyufdxxf.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/20140303_104926_zpsloa44wvd.jpg

[Robert Henley]

He had the investment part nailed--wonder what would he think of the prices today.

[bbcode3]

I really like this topic. There are still a few dealers around that will screw you over but they are getting fewer and fewer. Big money, lawyers and contracts help that a bit now but still some will still lose out.

 

I am curious what some of you guys paid for things back then. I bought an S&H MP5 last month and the seller paid $2500 in 1994 and the thought he was ripped off......needless to say he changed his mind last month.

 

I bought my first MG in 2005 for $5400 (Ruger AC556) and a MAC 11/9 in 2006 for $2200.

[johnfreeman]

It's a good topic! I think in addition to the lawyers and contracts you note, the internet helps get the word around quickly, if people are getting scammed.

 

A factual note here, Strurm, Subguns , Uzitalk, and a few others will quickly communicate a scam...

 

 

I really like this topic. There are still a few dealers around that will screw you over but they are getting fewer and fewer. Big money, lawyers and contracts help that a bit now but still some will still lose out.

Edited March 7, 2014 by johnfreeman

[RoscoeTurner]

The first machine gun I bought was a C&R MG42 for $2000 in 1983.

 

 

I really like this topic. There are still a few dealers around that will screw you over but they are getting fewer and fewer. Big money, lawyers and contracts help that a bit now but still some will still lose out.

 

I am curious what some of you guys paid for things back then. I bought an S&H MP5 last month and the seller paid $2500 in 1994 and the thought he was ripped off......needless to say he changed his mind last month.

 

I bought my first MG in 2005 for $5400 (Ruger AC556) and a MAC 11/9 in 2006 for $2200.

[timkel]

Thompson price + $200tax + $25 dealer transfer fee = seemed like a lot of $$ at the time. There were several other type SMG's selling at a lower price at the time. MAC's, Reising, S&W76, Sten, ect. Oh and transfers times varied. This one only took 2 weeks.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/form4_quick001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/QualityProd001_zpsca5e47bb.jpg

Edited March 7, 2014 by timkel

[johnfreeman]

That's really fun to see. Thanks for posting it....

[RoscoeTurner]

I remember passing on Sten's back then as a matter of principal, I wasn't going to buy a machine gun whose price tag was less than the transfer tax.

 

 

Thompson price + $200tax + $25 dealer transfer fee = seemed like a lot of $$ at the time. There were several other type SMG's selling at a lower price at the time. MAC's, Reising, S&W76, Sten, ect. Oh and transfers times varied. This one only took 2 weeks.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/form4_quick001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/QualityProd001_zpsca5e47bb.jpg

[smkummer]

I still have one of J. Curtis Earls last ads in shotgun news. It was 1999 and it appeared he was selling out. I called about a Reising for $750 and was told they were gone but he had several for $1400 (maybe he never did have any $750 reisings). I passed and bought one locally (my first). I then called Earl about reising magazines he had advertised for $75 each and left a message. I received a collect phone call from him and he stated the priced increased to $100 now. I said no thank you. I remember hanging up the phone and thinking what a *ss to return a phone call collect ($5 for one minute) to tell me now the price was $100. Judging from what others have said about him, I almost feel like one of the "group" to be treated like this among the class 3 community. And yes now days, the reputation one develops both good and especially bad can spread fast in the internet world. Maybe it is for the best. I would have to admit though back then ads such as his did tell the population that owning a machine gun for most was legal.

[RoscoeTurner]

I count myself lucky, I was warned away from Earl before I ever got started in NFA.

 

 

I still have one of J. Curtis Earls last ads in shotgun news. It was 1999 and it appeared he was selling out. I called about a Reising for $750 and was told they were gone but he had several for $1400 (maybe he never did have any $750 reisings). I passed and bought one locally (my first). I then called Earl about reising magazines he had advertised for $75 each and left a message. I received a collect phone call from him and he stated the priced increased to $100 now. I said no thank you. I remember hanging up the phone and thinking what a *ss to return a phone call collect ($5 for one minute) to tell me now the price was $100. Judging from what others have said about him, I almost feel like one of the "group" to be treated like this among the class 3 community. And yes now days, the reputation one develops both good and especially bad can spread fast in the internet world. Maybe it is for the best. I would have to admit though back then ads such as his did tell the population that owning a machine gun for most was legal.

[SRSch]

Way, back when in 1979 when I was just getting interested in full auto weapons, i looked up J. Cutis Earl in Scottsdale and made arangements with him to meet at his home. My wife came with me and he was very affiable as we sat in his living room. I talked about what I was interested in, specifically WWII guns. Abruply he said he had an appointment to go to and would be gone for about 20 minutes, but would be back. He said "You are welcome to stay here and relax while I am out."

 

Kind of took me aback that he would be so open to us strangers in his home. So he left and we sat on a big couch and right in front of us was his coffee table with an absoutely beatiful miniature fully functioning 22 cal. gattlin gun. I would not even venture to touch it, but bent over to examine it closely. I was amazed at its detail. My wife bent over to see it, too.

 

I said "God, do you have any idea what this miniture gun is worth?" My wife shook her head and said, "Thousands?" "Yes, at least that" My wife then said, "And he just left us here with it, and does not know us?"

 

And I said, "He is a very trusting man."

 

So we sat and conversed in his living room with that treasure before us waiting for him to return.

 

He came back about 20 minutes later, and we continued our conversation about WWII firearms. Then he said, "You want to see something? Come with me?"

 

And we followed him to his "Arms Bunker" that had a steel door like one would see in a bank. He twirled the combination, opened the door and switched on the light. I could not believe my eyes. All his guns on the walls of this bunker. Absolutely beautiful weapons. WWI, WWII, and conflicts after reprsesented.

 

He did not hard sell any thing to me at all. Just showed me his personal collection. Then I said I am interested in a Thompson WWII gun, he had those, but then said, "But I have something that will make your eyes pop out" He then took me to several metal cases on the floor marked. "LAPD" And opened one up. There right before my eyes was a absolutely pristine Model 1921 Thompson, with drum mag and acessories all in place, as if never been used. "WOW!" I said, "How much?" He then said, "if you like this one $2,700" firm.

 

But I had only half that much to spend, and said, "Give me some time, I just don't have that much at the moment" He then said, "Well, boy, don't wait too long as the price will surely be higher later."

 

He was as I remember very friendly, the only time I met him face to face. But I never bought that gun, and today I REALLY regret it. From what I have read that he could be shifty and maybe do some "bait and switch" on buyers, especially novices. But that 1921 LAPD boxed Thomson is a memory I will never forget nor the visit had with J. Curtis Earl. I still have one of his catalogs and if anything what he predicted is true. The prices have gone sky high on just about every gun listed.

 

But that day in 1979, when we were sitting in his living room with that 22 cal. miniture gattlin gun sitting before me and my wife... I will bet that he was in the back room with his spy camera on us to see if we were "honorable" people.

 

Steve

Edited June 23, 2014 by SRSch

[Robert Henley]

Way, back when in 1979 when I was just getting interested in full auto weapons, i looked up J. Cutis Earl in Scottsdale and made arangements with him to meet at his home. My wife came with me and he was very affiable as we sat in his living room. I talked about what I was interested in, specifically WWII guns. Abruply he said he had an appointment to go to and would be gone for about 20 minutes, but would be back. He said "You are welcome to stay here and relax while I am out."

 

Kind of took me aback that he would be so open to us strangers in his home. So he left and we sat on a big couch and right in front of us was his coffee table with an absoutely beatiful miniature fully functioning 22 cal. gattlin gun. I would not even venture to touch it, but bent over to examine it closely. I was amazed at its detail. My wife bent over to see it, too.

 

I said "God, do you have any idea what this miniture gun is worth?" My wife shook her head and said, "Thousands?" "Yes, at least that" My wife then said, "And he just left us here with it, and does not know us?"

 

And I said, "He is a very trusting man."

 

So we sat and conversed in his living room with that treasure before us waiting for him to return.

 

He came back about 20 minutes later, and we continued our conversation about WWII firearms. Then he said, "You want to see something? Come with me?"

 

And we followed him to his "Arms Bunker" that had a steel door like one would see in a bank. He twirled the combination, opened the door and switched on the light. I could not believe my eyes. All his guns on the walls of this bunker. Absolutely beautiful weapons. WWI, WWII, and conflicts after reprsesented.

 

He did not hard sell any thing to me at all. Just showed me his personal collection. Then I said I am interested in a Thompson WWII gun, he had those, but then said, "But I have something that will make your eyes pop out" He then took me to several metal cases on the floor marked. "LAPD" And opened one up. There right before my eyes was a absolutely pristine Model 1921 Thompson, with drum mag and acessories all in place, as if never been used. "WOW!" I said, "How much?" He then said, "if you like this one $2,700" firm.

 

But I had only half that much to spend, and said, "Give me some time, I just don't have that much at the moment" He then said, "Well, boy, don't wait too long as the price will surely be higher later."

 

He was as I remember very friendly, the only time I met him face to face. But I never bought that gun, and today I REALLY regret it. From what I have read that he could be shifty and maybe do some "bait and switch" on buyers, especially novices. But that 1921 LAPD boxed Thomson is a memory I will never forget nor the visit had with J. Curtis Earl. I still have one of his catalogs and if anything what he predicted is true. The prices have gone sky high on just about every gun listed.

 

But that day in 1979, when we were sitting in his living room with that 22 cal. miniture gattlin gun sitting before me and my wife... I will bet that he was in the back room with his spy camera on us to see if we were "honorable" people.

 

Steve

 

That's a great story!

[nfacol]

Was the Gatling Gun on a wheeled carriage or was it on a tripod like this?

[SRSch]

As I recall it was the 1862 U.S. Civil War wheeled carrage. Wood spoked wheels with iron rims. A perfect mini replica of the larger antique gun. The gun hardware was bronze with the correct markings. I have never seen another one like it since. But the gun assemby on the one that you are showing looks like one that I saw on Earl's coffee table.

 

Steve.

 

BTW: I have been trying to post photos of my WWII C&R Sten MK-II that I stripped off three layers of paint to reveal its war trophy appearance. I see that it is a JPG as are mine. No matter what I do, I get error messages. How did you post your photo?

Edited June 25, 2014 by SRSch

[nfacol]

Click the "More Reply Options" button and then click the "Browse" button. Then browse through your picture files on your computer and click on the one you want to attach. Then click on the "Attach This File" button.