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Gangster Gunsmiths and Clyde Barrow?


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I collect representative firearms that were used by the Barrow gang. I wanted to pick your brains about some of Clyde Barrow's weapons that were "modified". We know that Clyde had some BARs that were shortened. The Colt 1911 (1917-mfg military) that was "found on his body" has had the "United States Property" filed off of the frame dust cover. The Colt Detective Special that Bonnie had taped to her thigh had the serial number ground off. The "Bonnie 1911" (1914-mfg military) on display in Huntsville TX that was "found in her lap" has had the "United States Property" filed off the dust cover and the "Model 1911 U.S. Army" ground off of the right side of the slide and was then nickel plated.


I can understand it would be pretty easy for Clyde to hack-saw off a BAR barrel and buttstock, but what about modifying pistols and nickel plating them. Were there underworld gun dealers that modified guns like this and sold them to criminals? I know that a lot of service men brought back their service guns and sometimes filed off the US property markings so that Uncle Sam wouldn't recognize them (yeah... right!). Would Clyde buy guns like this from shady dealers? Or.... did Clyde had the time or inclination to modify guns like that himself? I have heard about a "Baldy" Whatley being a underworld gun dealer to the Dallas criminals. Clyde stole so many 1911s from armories that I doubt that he needed to buy or modify them like that. I've always heard that Clyde's civilian shotguns and handguns were either bought or stolen from hardware stores.


The theory that I hate to think happened is that the civilians that ended up with these B&C guns after their deaths modified them like that to erase US property identification. For example.... why would Texas Prison Supervisor Lee Simmons bother to have his Frank Hamer provided souvenir "Bonnie 1911" pistol defiled and nickel plated? Surely it was already like that when found in Bonnie's lap.


I'm sure that the Yankee gangsters like Dillinger, Capone, and the Mafia had underworld gun dealers and gunsmiths, but what about the Southwestern criminals like B&C and Pretty Boy Floyd?


Any knowledge or thoughts would be appreciated.

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I collect representative firearms that were used by the Barrow gang. I wanted to pick your brains about some of Clyde Barrow's weapons that were "modified". We know that Clyde had some BARs that were shortened. The Colt 1911 (1917-mfg military) that was "found on his body" has had the "United States Property" filed off of the frame dust cover. The Colt Detective Special that Bonnie had taped to her thigh had the serial number ground off. The "Bonnie 1911" (1914-mfg military) on display in Huntsville TX that was "found in her lap" has had the "United States Property" filed off the dust cover and the "Model 1911 U.S. Army" ground off of the right side of the slide and was then nickel plated.
I can understand it would be pretty easy for Clyde to hack-saw off a BAR barrel and buttstock, but what about modifying pistols and nickel plating them. Were there underworld gun dealers that modified guns like this and sold them to criminals? I know that a lot of service men brought back their service guns and sometimes filed off the US property markings so that Uncle Sam wouldn't recognize them (yeah... right!). Would Clyde buy guns like this from shady dealers? Or.... did Clyde had the time or inclination to modify guns like that himself? I have heard about a "Baldy" Whatley being a underworld gun dealer to the Dallas criminals. Clyde stole so many 1911s from armories that I doubt that he needed to buy or modify them like that. I've always heard that Clyde's civilian shotguns and handguns were either bought or stolen from hardware stores.
The theory that I hate to think happened is that the civilians that ended up with these B&C guns after their deaths modified them like that to erase US property identification. For example.... why would Texas Prison Supervisor Lee Simmons bother to have his Frank Hamer provided souvenir "Bonnie 1911" pistol defiled and nickel plated? Surely it was already like that when found in Bonnie's lap.

 

 

Clyde was probably pretty handy with a gun, but all his modifications amounted to sawing something off. He cut down most of their shotguns and at least two of the BARs -- not very successfully, by the way, as keeping the BAR functioning with a shorter barrel is apparently not that easy; there's not enough pressure for the action to work properly.

He certainly had not the opportunity to nickel anything -- they were always on the run! Any nickeled weapons with claimed Barrow Gang provenance must have been nickeled afterwards -- or weren't held by them in the first place. That provenance is worth serious money nowadays, and unfortunately there are a number of weapons out there that were supposed to be theirs -- including the Model 1921A (No.4208) -- but likely never were. That, by the way, includes the Detective Special you mention. Supposedly it was found taped to her thigh. However, the weapon is nowhere to be seen or mentioned in contemporary photos or accounts, as far as I know. The first time it's mentioned in the 1960s by Hamer's son. That man is not a reliable source on events in 1934, however, as many of his accounts have turned out to be wrong (take just the Remington Model 81 Police Special, which he claims was used but didn't even exist at the time). He was not there, and the older Hamer was the close-mouthed type. The son possibly only had the weapons and not the stories ...

Come to think of it, even removing the serial number is not very like Clyde. All of the weapons that were recovered prior to the ambush still had their numbers on them. He never bothered with obliterating them.

Anyway, things have become rather blurred by now. I've tried to map just the weaponry used by the six men in the ambush and ended up with about 20 different versions ranging from 1934 interviews with those involved to the latest books on the affair.

Could you tell me more about the nickeled M1911? What is its serial number, where is it now, how did it get there? Many thanks!

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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Hans,

 

There is a Colt 1911 on display in the Texas Prison Museum in Huntsville TX. It is serial number 97073 which according to the Colt website was a military configuration pistol made in 1914. It has had the "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" and "MODEL OF 1911 U.S. ARMY" ground off of the frame and slide and then nickel plated. The pistol has mother-of-pearl grips. The reported history is that it was found in Bonnie's lap after the ambush and given by Frank Hamer to his boss Prisons Manager Lee Simmons. Simmons actually traveled to Arcadia the day of the ambush and could have been given the gun that day. The Simmons family has had this pistol in their possession ever since and several years ago loaned the pistol to the museum.

 

I don't doubt its provenance. I merely question if the current configuration is the same as when found in the car. I imagine that all of the 1911 pistols found in the Death Car were in military configuration and were those stolen from National Guard armories, including the one found in Bonnie's lap. My conjecture is that Mr. Simmons may have had the markings filed off so that it would not be viable US property anymore and then had the pistol nickel plated and re-gripped so that he would have a "show piece". It is just as likely that Frank Hamer brought the gun back to Austin, had it so modified and then given to his boss as a souvenir.

 

I agree that Frank Hamer Jr. was not a credible witness to the ambush weapons. In addition to the mis-identified Remington Model 81 Police rifle, he also stated that there was a Winchester 1901 10g lever action sawed -off shotgun in the car. This shotgun is currently on display at the Texas Rangers Museum in Waco TX. However, this gun was not identified in the original Death Car inventory quoted by Frank Hamer to author Preston Webb in his 1935 book on the Texas Rangers. In that original list, Frank identified two automatic sawed-off shotguns, a 16g and a 20g, both of which were photographed at the ambush. Later references to this 16g was mis-transcribed as a 10g in subsequent books (i.e. "I'm Frank Hamer" biography, 1968), My contention is that Frank Jr. merely found a 10g lever-action shotgun in his dad's collection and assumed it must be the 10g that was listed wrong in the later accounts.

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I've always liked the 1902 Colt .38 that was discovered on Bonnie's corpse by mortician Charles Bailey of Arcadia.

 

Screen-shot-2014-01-07-at-12.50.56-PM.pn

 

Screen-shot-2014-01-07-at-12.51.13-PM.pn

 

Screen-shot-2014-01-07-at-12.52.14-PM.pn

 

https://www.guns.com/news/2014/01/08/infamous-outlaw-bonnie-parkers-colt-1902-auction

 

Rob

Edited by ghostsoldier
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Yes! Imagine having a 9" long 2-lb pistol like that "hidden in the folds of her dress"! Now I'm not saying she didn't have it there. She wasn't removed from the car until they towed to the Conger Funeral Home, so she may have had it hidden on her person. Adding in the .38 Colt Detective Special taped to her inner thigh, the 1911 in her lap, the Remington Model 11 20g shotgun next to her left leg, and a .25 Auto Colt 1908 Vest Pocket Hammerless in her purse... that was one well-armed 85 lb crippled redhead! :happy:

Edited by cantgrowup
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Hans,

 

There is a Colt 1911 on display in the Texas Prison Museum in Huntsville TX. It is serial number 97073 which according to the Colt website was a military configuration pistol made in 1914. It has had the "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" and "MODEL OF 1911 U.S. ARMY" ground off of the frame and slide and then nickel plated. The pistol has mother-of-pearl grips. The reported history is that it was found in Bonnie's lap after the ambush and given by Frank Hamer to his boss Prisons Manager Lee Simmons. Simmons actually traveled to Arcadia the day of the ambush and could have been given the gun that day. The Simmons family has had this pistol in their possession ever since and several years ago loaned the pistol to the museum.

 

I don't doubt its provenance. I merely question if the current configuration is the same as when found in the car. I imagine that all of the 1911 pistols found in the Death Car were in military configuration and were those stolen from National Guard armories, including the one found in Bonnie's lap. My conjecture is that Mr. Simmons may have had the markings filed off so that it would not be viable US property anymore and then had the pistol nickel plated and re-gripped so that he would have a "show piece". It is just as likely that Frank Hamer brought the gun back to Austin, had it so modified and then given to his boss as a souvenir.

 

I agree that Frank Hamer Jr. was not a credible witness to the ambush weapons. In addition to the mis-identified Remington Model 81 Police rifle, he also stated that there was a Winchester 1901 10g lever action sawed -off shotgun in the car. This shotgun is currently on display at the Texas Rangers Museum in Waco TX. However, this gun was not identified in the original Death Car inventory quoted by Frank Hamer to author Preston Webb in his 1935 book on the Texas Rangers. In that original list, Frank identified two automatic sawed-off shotguns, a 16g and a 20g, both of which were photographed at the ambush. Later references to this 16g was mis-transcribed as a 10g in subsequent books (i.e. "I'm Frank Hamer" biography, 1968), My contention is that Frank Jr. merely found a 10g lever-action shotgun in his dad's collection and assumed it must be the 10g that was listed wrong in the later accounts.

 

Thanks for the details on the M1911.

 

Yes, the mixup likely occured in later books that copied Webb's list.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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Yes! Imagine having a 9" long 2-lb pistol like that "hidden in the folds of her dress"! Now I'm not saying she didn't have it there. She wasn't removed from the car until they towed to the Conger Funeral Home, so she may have had it hidden on her person. Adding in the .38 Colt Detective Special taped to her inner thigh, the 1911 in her lap, the Remington Model 11 20g shotgun next to her left leg, and a .25 Auto Colt 1908 Vest Pocket Hammerless in her purse... that was one well-armed 85 lb crippled redhead! :happy:

 

 

Exactly the point I was trying to make above. In addition to all those gats, she also had a "machine gun" in her lap -- either a BAR or a Thompson, depending on who's telling the story ... I'm actually fairly certain that the number of guns found on or near her was 0.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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Well.... no way that anyone had a full size BAR in the front seat of the '34 Ford Sedan. It's not feasible. The three BARs were in the back seat floorboard covered by a blanket. Clyde had a Browning Auto 5 16g shotgun by his left leg and a Remington Model 11 20g by his right leg. The 1911 found in her lap was probably there for Clyde's access also. I don't doubt that Bonnie had a revolver taped to her thigh as attested to by Frank Hamer. Frank Hamer wrote a note to his friend when he gave him the pistol that said "Hold onto this. Bonnie was squatting on it". I wouldn't doubt that Bonnie may have had a Colt 1908 Vest Pocket .25 ACP in her purse as another backup for Clyde.

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Well.... no way that anyone had a full size BAR in the front seat of the '34 Ford Sedan. It's not feasible. The three BARs were in the back seat floorboard covered by a blanket. Clyde had a Browning Auto 5 16g shotgun by his left leg and a Remington Model 11 20g by his right leg.

 

Exactly.

 

It sure sounds like you're an advanced collector, since you noted that the larger weapon was a Browning, not a second Remington, most people don't pick up on that. Have you more details on this gun?

 

 

The 1911 found in her lap was probably there for Clyde's access also. I don't doubt that Bonnie had a revolver taped to her thigh as attested to by Frank Hamer. Frank Hamer wrote a note to his friend when he gave him the pistol that said "Hold onto this. Bonnie was squatting on it". I wouldn't doubt that Bonnie may have had a Colt 1908 Vest Pocket .25 ACP in her purse as another backup for Clyde.

 

Interesting. Have you seen this note? Many thanks!

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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Hans,

 

The Bonnie revolver sold at auction in 2012. One of the items with the gun was a note written by Frank Hamer to former Texas Ranger Buster Davis on the back of a Texas Ranger Expense form.

https://www.icollector.com/Bonnie-Parker-Colt-Detective-Special-38-revolver_i13906835#

 

The Browning Auto 5 16g shotgun that is clearly visible in the 16mm film and stills, as well as several other photos. It is identifiable by the magazine cut-off lever on the lower left receiver, the sliding safety in the front trigger guard, and the rounded pommel on the buttstock, This is the "Browning Auto" (not a BAR as commonly reported) that was damaged by a bullet strike during the ambush. In the photo of Deputy Sheriff AB Rogers showing off the remaining arsenal left after the posse had taken their souvenirs, you can see a dent in the upper left of the receiver. In my opinion, this is the "holy grail" of Clyde weapons. Its whereabouts are unknown. After the ambush, this shotgun was forensically matched to the 16g hulls left at the Grapevine motorcycle police killings.

 

barrowdeathcararsenal1934-473x640.jpg

 

 

Here is my legal length Clyde whippet Browning 16g (minus the bullet strike dent).

 

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1324/13790650/24851870/414416077.jpg

Edited by cantgrowup
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Hans,

 

The Bonnie revolver sold at auction in 2012. One of the items with the gun was a note written by Frank Hamer to former Texas Ranger Buster Davis on the back of a Texas Ranger Expense form.

https://www.icollector.com/Bonnie-Parker-Colt-Detective-Special-38-revolver_i13906835#

 

 

Thanks for this, I seem to recall I had seen the auction but must have missed the note, that does indeed change things a bit -- although I find it still unlikely that she would bother to tape it to her leg when the entire car was filled with guns ...

 

 

 

The Browning Auto 5 16g shotgun that is clearly visible in the 16mm film and stills, as well as several other photos. It is identifiable by the magazine cut-off lever on the lower left receiver, the sliding safety in the front trigger guard, and the rounded pommel on the buttstock, This is the "Browning Auto" (not a BAR as commonly reported) that was damaged by a bullet strike during the ambush. In the photo of Deputy Sheriff AB Rogers showing off the remaining arsenal left after the posse had taken their souvenirs, you can see a dent in the upper left of the receiver. In my opinion, this is the "holy grail" of Clyde weapons. Its whereabouts are unknown. After the ambush, this shotgun was forensically matched to the 16g hulls left at the Grapevine motorcycle police killings-

 

 

Yes, exactly, but even Swearengen in THE WORLD'S FIGHTING SHOTGUNS didn't pick up on this and claimed that they were two Remingtons.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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I'm of the opinion that she taped it to her leg for the times that she wasn't in a car with all those weapons, as 'back-up insurance' for the lifestyle she had chosen. She used the same tactic to smuggle the stolen gun to Clyde in 1930 for his escape from the McLennan County jail in Waco.

 

Rob

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This is the "Browning Auto" (not a BAR as commonly reported) that was damaged by a bullet strike during the ambush. In the photo of Deputy Sheriff AB Rogers showing off the remaining arsenal left after the posse had taken their souvenirs, you can see a dent in the upper left of the receiver. In my opinion, this is the "holy grail" of Clyde weapons. Its whereabouts are unknown. After the ambush, this shotgun was forensically matched to the 16g hulls left at the Grapevine motorcycle police killings.

 

I now remembered that I had seen an article in the Victoria Advocate paper from 27-MAY-1934 which described the damage to the Browning as more extensive than just a dent, claiming that it was "sealed forever" and that it "can't be opened or fired". That, of course, would have made a ballistic match impossible. I have not yet been able to reconcile that with other articles that said there was a match.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

 

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I would love to see that article. But that was only 4 days after the ambush and I'm sure that given time, the FBI or some other agency could get it to fire at least one shell from it for ballistic testing. It could have been cut apart just to get the firing pin and installed in another Browning for test purposes. So... I don't doubt the link to the Grapevine killings. I've always maintained that the weapon had no value because it was non-functional and therefore useless to anyone as a firearm. That's why it was not taken by any of the posse members (as evidenced by the "white board" photo) and was probably discarded after testing.

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Greetings gentlemen. The adminstrator finally approved me so I can throw my hat in the ring as I have been following this thread. It's my contention that these handguns were defiled before they came into B&C's possession. It was a common practice back then by vets on military weapons. We already know Bonnie liked nickel guns. She had the 1911....the 1902...and the vest pocket .25. And those are just the ones we know of. I think that's just what she collected. Not that they had them plated or that they were plated post ambush. They probably were already plated before they stole them. As far as serial numbers and military markings....I think that's the least of your worries when you're wanted for armed robbery, interstate auto theft, and murder. So I doubt they personally filed away any markings. As far as Bonnie having the .38 det. spl. taped to her thigh...I think we've all read that she did that because LEO's just didn't frisk women in those areas back in those days. So, that does make sense. But can you imagine riding around all day in a bumpy ass 34 Ford with that taped between your legs? Especially when Clyde was very well known for not getting stopped. Still, it's hard to discredit the provenance of the letter. Of all the B&C weapons that have been discussed over the years, the one that I personally think has the greatest provenance and is probably the least talked about, is the Westernfield model 30 pump action 12 gauge. It's the only one thats actually in any of the infamous pictures of them that were recovered from the camera left behind in the Joplin shootout. I believe it was the latest one to sell at auction. Just last year if memory serves. Yes...The Browning A5 16ga. is in the photos as well. Along with a Krag Jorgenson rifle. And there are some photos of them with a BAR and Clyde loading a mag. But we don't know where any of those weapons are now. Thats why I think the Westernfield tops them all. Well...That's my 2 cents. Thanks for letting me jump in. Great thread btw. Edited by Chipper58
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As far as Bonnie having the .38 det. spl. taped to her thigh...I think we've all read that she did that because LEO's just didn't frisk women in those areas back in those days. So, that does make sense. But can you imagine riding around all day in a bumpy ass 34 Ford with that taped between your legs? Especially when Clyde was very well known for not getting stopped. Still, it's hard to discredit the provenance of the letter.

 

Exactly the point I was trying to make above. Sure, the location makes sense if she wanted to hide it. But the timing? I find it unlikely that she would routinely tape the thing to her thighs, just in case. That's just too uncomfortable. And why would she tape it that very day? They'd been to a sandwich shop earlier, no heist was planned for later that day as far as we know, they didn't expect a thing. So why on earth would she do that? I don't find that plausible. Now, if the note is genuine, do note that Hamer wrote that she was "squatting" on it. That could just as well mean that she had it under her on the seat, or something.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

 

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Interesting thread...I learned two new things from it. I didn't realize that Westernfield was that old of a company, and I also didn't realize there was a Colt 1902 involved in the B&C takedown.

 

cantgrowup,

 

Regarding gangster gunsmiths, you should research Hyman Lehman of San Antonio, if you haven't already. In my opinion, he was the best known of them. He is known to have provided weapons to Dillinger and Baby Face Nelson, among others. Previous discussion of him took place on this board in the past. The late The late Sandy Jones ("OCM"), who used to be the driving personality on this board was quite fond of Lehman's work.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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Thanks dalbert. I have only recently learned of Mr. Lehman and his famous guns for Dillinger and Nelson.

 

According to Wiki, the Western Field Model 30 was first offered by as a store-branded shotgun by Montgomery Wards in 1925, and the Ranger Model 30 was offered by Sears and Roebuck in the same year, both of which were manufactured by Stevens (Savage). I'm not sure how far back other "Western Field" and "Ranger" guns were marketed by the two stores.

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  • 2 months later...

I just added a nice Colt 1909 New Service .45 LC revolver to my B&C collection. One of these was found in the Death Car and is clearly shown in the Bienville Parish Deputy Sheriff AB Rogers "white board" photo of the Death Car weapons (shown above) that were left after the posse had taken their "souvenirs".

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Hey.... if Hamer said she was "squatting on it" then I think that it was as Hamer said...... It was taped to her thigh. What I've noticed is that the three of the weapons that Hamer said was in the Death Car (the Clyde 1911, the Bonnie 1911, and the Bonnie .38 Detective Special) all had serial numbers or "United States Property" marking filed off. I'm beginning to believe that Hamer himself had these markings filed off. The Clyde 1911 and the Bonnie 1911 both had the "United States Property' markings filed off, and the .38 Detective Special had the SN filed off. Since B&C were wanted for murder and subject to the electric chair, they would not have had the time nor inclination, not care to modify these three weapons in the manner that they were later auctioned off as. I'm thinking that Hamer himself modified these three firearms so that he could obscure their legal ownership (either to the US government, or a civilian owner). I'm thinking that Hamer modified weapons so that they would not be easily traced to the Federal government, or a legal civilian owner. I'm thinking that the military-issue Bonnie 1911 that was given to Lee Simmons by Hamer as a momento was either modified and nickle plated by Hamer or Simmons afterwards. Your thoughts?

Edited by cantgrowup
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