Auto Ordnance West Hurley Question

[firearm]

Does anyone remember who the machine shop supervisor was for Auto Ordnance West Hurley NY. was before they sold out to Kahr? Roger something? (Circa 1993)

[firearm]

Just in case anyone is wondering why I am asking such a question. Back in 1996, the NRA did a show in Dallas, Texas. I did a Thompson display there for my lawyer, Albert Ross a friend of mine. While there, I met up with the A/O West Hurley NY guys in their booth. They seemed not to be too happy to be there but I kept bending theirs ears looking for info on this and that. I invited them over to my booth and took some pics of them with a couple of my 21's. A few weeks later, I had them printed and framed and mailed to them out not thinking too much about it. About a month later, the machine shop foreman, Roger ? (if I remember right) called me and asked me if I would like to buy the last full auto Thompson at the factory. $1500. Sure I said I would take it. It turned out to be a .22 receiver that had been found in the tool room. I think I responded that I didn't think any of them really ran very well but I would take it anyway. He told me that the reason there were so many problems with the .22 full auto weapons was that the machining tolerances in the past were very sloppy. He said he would personally build this weapon out for me and make sure that it ran 100%. A few months later, it showed up. I thought it was super nice compared to what I had seen in the past. A few weeks later, he called again and said that if I would send the wood on the weapon back, that he had some very select pieces to replace them with. Fast forward to today, I found that weapon in the corner of my office still in the original box. When time permits, I will get it out and shoot some pics for you guys that would like to see it. Not a Colt, but still an interesting piece IMHO. I have the notes on my conversations with him somewhere but not sure where in all this stuff around here. I was hoping that if I could remember his name that I could find it a little easier.

[Stampcollector]

firearm, I would like to see it! Could you show the original box it came in also. I know some of the .22's were converted to .45's.

[firearm]

Headed out of town for the holidays. When I get back I will post pics and as much info as i have. If I remember right, AO had so much trouble with the full auto 22's, they just started replacing them with .45's. Maybe some RKI knows more than I do.

[TD.]

Question: What is the caliber of this "last full auto Thompson" at the AOC West Hurley factory? .22 rimfire or .45acp?

 

Thompson receivers in .22 caliber were not converted to .45acp. The .22 caliber receivers are made of aluminum (or some type of alloy). .45acp receivers are machined out of steel. I do not believe a lasting conversion would be possible. I believe AOC West Hurley had ATF approval to manufacture a number of Thompson submachine guns in .22 caliber prior to the 1986 ban. Apparently, the serial numbers were part of the approval process. From what I understand, AOC WH obtained permission from ATF to change the caliber of the submachine guns from .22 rimfire to .45acp. This approval dictated a change to steel receivers. However, the approved serial numbers were not changed. That is why there are .45acp caliber submachine guns with steel receivers in the serial number range for .22 caliber Thompson submachine guns. I would assume the .45acp WH Thompson submachine guns serial numbered in the .22 caliber serial number range were the last of the Model of 1928 WH full auto guns. All and all a smart decision given all the reported problems and apparently slow sales of the WH .22 caliber Thompson submachine guns.

[buzz]

This forum kicks ass.

[Adg105200]

This forum kicks ass.

1000% agreed buzz!

 

We love pictures of guns!

 

Andrew

[firearm]

The last .22 caliber full auto to leave the AO plant was 227TF. June, 1996.

[TD.]

firearm,

Thank you for providing that information. I had a feeling the "last full auto" may have been in .22 caliber. Of course, AOC WH did manufacture a few Post Sample full auto guns in the 3000 and 4000 serial number range. I know some were exported; very few have surfaced in the USA. Gun Parts Corporation had a WH parts kit at Knob Creek a few years ago with pieces of a torch cut reciever in the 3000A serial number range. I believe I have a picture somewhere. I was told there was a paperwork problem with this Post Sample with ATF so a decision was made to the solve the problem with a cutting torch.

 

When interviewing former AOC President Ira Trast for my 2011 West Hurley Thompson Parts story for Small Arms Review magazine, I found out most/all of the 45.acp full-auto receivers were actually manufactured by a subcontractor. Two subcontractors were used by AOC WH to manufacture the great majority of the parts used to make the full auto guns. I never thought to ask about the .22 caliber full-auto Thompson guns. Some of the full-auto guns are marked with the letters "QF" on the underside of the receiver below the rear sight. Close examination can also reveal a vibro etched serial number. I believe these to be markings from the subcontractor. I have never examined a field stripped .22 caliber AOC WH full-auto Thompson to look for subcontractor markings. That said, the .22 caliber Thompson receivers would be much easier to make in-house (no Blish lock) than the .45acp full auto receivers.

 

All good stuff!!!

[firearm]

Here are a couple of quick pics that I shot on my way out of town. The last transferable full auto .22 caliber Thompson to leave the Auto Ordnance factory. June 1996. New in the original shipping box with a factory drum. A .22 caliber curved stick mag with the adaptor and a WWII Seymour magazine with a .22 caliber insert. Wood is very nice but the receiver could have been machine a little smoother IMHO. In any case, most that came out of the factory were very troublesome. The machine shop foreman put this one together himself and made sure it ran good before he finished it out. Not too many of these around. 200 or so? Drums are pretty rare, as well as magazines. Just before AO shut the doors, I bought all of the .22 caliber magazines that they had left in stock. No drums were available so I missed out on that one. Any guesses as to what this thing is worth to a collector?

[deerslayer]

Be interesting to see the bolt. I've seen four ways they pop the primer, some with a standard 45 type pivoting hammer and moving firing pin. And then three versions of a fixed firing pin.

 

You've got over a thousand dollars with of magazines showing in the picture. I was thinking i saw a gun sell in the $14000 range. But the web site listed below has nice data.

 

http://machinegunpriceguide.com/html/us_subguns_15.html

[TD.]

deerslayer provides an interesting analysis on the .22 caliber AOC West Hurley full auto guns. I understand deerslayer is the person to see when your .22 caliber WH is having problems.

 

There was no real standardization of parts for the 45.acp full-auto Thompson guns. While not unexpected, it appears the same thing is true for the .22 caliber guns. It would be interesting to see pictures of all four different bolt designs.

 

While not in the market, it seems to me these WH .22 caliber full-auto guns sell for around 10K. I do not believe they sell very fast. Most likely, as the price goes down, the interest picks up. No. 227TF is a special case, not because it was the last transferable full-auto gun sold by AOC WH (if that can be documented), but because it appears to be unfired in the box with premium wood and complete with the drum magazine. The down side is no one I know collects AOC WH Thompson guns. Yes, a few collectors with large collections have one of each WH model to round out their collection, but no real premium is placed on these guns. I have often said an unfired WH Thompson only means the gun is unfired. It does not mean it works. Most have problems. See Board member PK.'s WH queue and deerslayer, above, for particulars on problem guns.

 

Thanks for sharing. A very interesting WH Thompson!

[Ron Mills]

Here's one that keeps coming up for sale, not a conversion and they say NIB

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/725451952

[colt21a]

I would dump it for whatever offer you get at even $5 grand you are making out like a bandit double that and you can be the next John Dillinger. see ya when you get back Nick. Colt21A Ron

[lightguy]

Question: What is the caliber of this "last full auto Thompson" at the AOC West Hurley factory? .22 rimfire or .45acp?

 

Thompson receivers in .22 caliber were not converted to .45acp. The .22 caliber receivers are made of aluminum (or some type of alloy). .45acp receivers are machined out of steel. I do not believe a lasting conversion would be possible. I believe AOC West Hurley had ATF approval to manufacture a number of Thompson submachine guns in .22 caliber prior to the 1986 ban. Apparently, the serial numbers were part of the approval process. From what I understand, AOC WH obtained permission from ATF to change the caliber of the submachine guns from .22 rimfire to .45acp. This approval dictated a change to steel receivers. However, the approved serial numbers were not changed. That is why there are .45acp caliber submachine guns with steel receivers in the serial number range for .22 caliber Thompson submachine guns. I would assume the .45acp WH Thompson submachine guns serial numbered in the .22 caliber serial number range were the last of the Model of 1928 WH full auto guns. All and all a smart decision given all the reported problems and apparently slow sales of the WH .22 caliber Thompson submachine guns.

 

Killer info.

I often joke in other forums how the Tommy gun group is full of nit-picking geeks but that really (plus the guns themselves ) is what makes it special.

Even in the Ferrari forums, where provenance is King, are the details so appreciated.

One of the many reasons why I love the TSMG.

Edited December 13, 2017 by lightguy

[lightguy]

Here's one that keeps coming up for sale, not a conversion and they say NIB

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/725451952

So whats the old saying about you cant pay too much only too early ?

35 grand for a .22 Hurley.

I'd say that's about a generation too early

Edited December 13, 2017 by lightguy

[Ron Mills]

I think that gun (the $35,000 .22) been on and off Gunbroker for at least a year or more. Aside from the "price", the question is will it even run?