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Confusing Transfer Errors


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I had a lawyer draw up my NFA trust. At his advice, I transferred my MGs into the trust using form 4. One of the transfers was returned because of errors. This was for my AO Bridgeport M-1. The ATF letter stated that the original registration lists no barrel or overall length for the firearm and for me to send a written memo giving this information. However, I'm looking directly at my original transfer papers and it does indeed list the barrel length as 10.5" and overall length as 32". Do any of you have a possible explanation why the ATF is requesting a memo on this? My Savage and my SBR went through just fine. I'll give the examiner a call on Monday, but thought I'd run it by you first.

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I had exactly the same questions, I just sent them a letter with pics of the gun on a tape measure. Approved right away.

 

However, the guns (There were two that both had this issue at the same time!) were formerly deactivated, I was reactivating them. When they were deactivated, they were called "1828 Numrich" rather than Savage, Auto Ordnance, or Thompson (all of which I have seen). They had no record of what the OAL of a 1928 Numrich should be, and since mine had a comp - it messed them up.

 

Is / was your gun a Dewat? Or is it listed as Savage on the previous form it was on before you transferred it?

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I would call ATF and speak to the examiner and ask for an explanation. They usually are very helpful so that the error gets straightened out. Try them first thing Monday. I'm sure it will be a quick fix.

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Thanks guys, your comments were extremely helpful. My M-1 was not a Dewat, at least to my knowledge. On the original transfer it list it as, Auto-Ordnance, Bridgeport, CT., model M-1.

 

Here is ATF correction letter:

"Please verify the barrel and over all lengths from the firearm/device (not previously approved forms). The original registration lists no barrel or overall length for the firearm. Please send a written memo provided the barrel and overall length of the firearm to include the serial number. If the information matches the original registration, you do not need to send a memo; please update the paperwork as necessary."

 

 

I think it's kind of curious that they say that no memo is necessary if the information matches the original registration, when they just stated that the original registration lists no barrel or overall length.

Edited by Sgt
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From what I've been told, the ATF is tracing every transfer back to the first form on file to correct any errors that may have occurred over the years. That is the reason for the long transfer times as well as all the letters. A recent Colt transfer of mine was kicked back because the model said 1921 Thompson versus just 1921.

Brian

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Hi,

 

Same recent experience here. Where the previous 2 transfer forms had the "Model" as "Model 6", evidently the first registration paperwork said "Model 6 Police" per BATF. The Examiner wanted the forms updated to the "Model 6 Police". Minor change to the forms and I'm sure the logjam will break soon.

 

Some liberties may have been taken over the years. With the above M1, I wonder if it was amnesty registered and nobody wrote down the measurements? Some of the rejection forms are just "check the box" and it may not make sense.

 

To check for BATF mistakes on your paperwork, I like to file 5320.20's on stuff I own. I've had 5320.20's returned with BATF claiming the firearm had been sold to someone else 10 months earlier. In this particular case, I'd owned the firearm for more than 10 years! Keep the 5320.20's even when they expire. In some cases it helps when you try to sell the firearm and at that point BATF indicates you don't own the gun. It is fun to ask them why previous 5320.20's were approved if you didn't own the gun.

 

I'm sure your transfer will get moving as soon as they get the information they lost or forgot to write down somewhere in the process.

 

Enjoy!

 

Grasshopper

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All of this is probably an unintended consequence from the Class Three dealers that were making cheaper machine guns into more expensive machine guns via multiple transfers between themselves with minor changes on each ATF Form. I seem to remember several dealers were arrested and some guns were seized. Does anyone have an update on this situation? Can you imagine paying 20K plus for a registered machine gun only to be told later as the gun was being seized that you are the victim of a criminal conspiracy involving a group of licensed dealers! And your investment is now evidence that will likely be ordered destroyed sometime in the future!

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This was posted on AR15.com:

 

Homeinvader, based on your comment and this entire thread, I picked up the phone and called NFA Branch Section Chief Ted Clutter. I was expecting his voice mail but he picked up, and we had a good discussion of the issue.

 

Mr. Clutter confirmed that NFA Branch is making a renewed effort to improve the accuracy of the NFA Registry, and that making corrections when a Form 3/4/5 is submitted is the natural opportunity to do so. He and NFA Branch recognize that machine guns do change in configuration over the years and decades, and believes that having an accurate Registry benefits owners as well -- his example: Imagine finding that the DMV listed your Chevy Corvette as a Chevy Malibu. It also reduces confusion for FFL/SOTs if the inventory printout from ATF accurately reflects the physical appearance of the dealer's inventory during inspections and audits.

 

As far as the correction process goes, Mr. Clutter said the examiners and assistants have been instructed that this is to keep the Registry accurate, and that all efforts should be aimed at keeping this as painless as possible. While the NFA staff will tell you the Form 1/2 dimensions if you request (for instance, for an RLL), they are also told to work with the transferor/transferee to bring the Registry up-to-date and reflect the current configuration. If that means the owner taking a ruler and measuring, that is acceptable, according to Mr. Clutter.

 

My overall impression of the discussion was that, while a change in policy, this is not a punitive effort, nor the start of a witch hunt. And in theory at least, over time it will be self-correcting as the NFA Registry becomes more accurate.

 

Finally, please note that this is not my decision; I'm just reporting what I heard from the horse's mouth. Make of it what you will.

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I currently have an Auto Burglar in transfer. I bought it from the widow of the original registrant. In 1968 he registered it as a short barreled shotgun versus an AOW. I'm now trying to correct the first registration, which was wrong. Anyone want to give me odds on success ?
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I just got done transferring an M2 carbine that was amnesty registered. The transfer got rejected because the original registration form somehow didn't list an overall length and I had put the correct OAL on my transfer form. The examiner gave us two choices: Either leave the OAL blank so it matched the original registration, or send photo documentation showing the correct OAL. White-out was quicker, so they approved it with no OAL.

 

And yes, this is a direct result to the dopes who were turning M11 MACs into M60s.

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I have an MP40 that may give me trouble later on. It was transferred to me in 1987 with the last two digits of the serial number transposed, I wrote NFA Branch about it at time and they replied that a correction would be made during the next transfer. They suggested a copy of their letter be attached to the F4 to avoid any confusion prior to the correction. With this new effort to make corrections I may write ATF again requesting a correction just to avoid any problems should I decide to sell the MP40.

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When I bought my m1a1 the previous owners form listed the barrel at 13". I sent a memo with my transfer noting the correct length was 10.5.

Had no problems.

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I thought I was going to have problems with my MG42 since the paperwork I had just said German govt as manufacture. But surprisingly it went fine. Edited by David
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My WWII German items have similar or German military as the manufacturer.

 

I thought I was going to have problems with my MG42 since the paperwork I had just said German govt as manufacture. But surprisingly it went fine.

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They did a correction on my AC556 when it was approved, marked approved with following changes "AC556k" but never kicked the form back. That was about 2 years ago. I was told all the increase in transfer times is due to the enormous application load, mostly due to SBR's and suppressors. Now even the time to get to pending is up to 8 weeks, then 6 months from there to approved!!

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Did hear from my dealer when I picked up my Thompson about issues he had and the main reason why he let his SOT/FFL lapse.

He got his yearly audit by the ATF. They came and looked at all his paperwork for his private machine guns and his presamples etc. He has been an legit perfect dealer for 30yrs and said the audit ^%$& blew. Neve once in his life had he been harassed the way he said he was. The threat was made to correct some forms for NFA guns on his books and submit to the ATF or they would be confiscated. At that point he told the agent to #$%^ off and notified the region to know of his future of his license.

Probably didn't help that the ATF auditor was a previously employed assistant district attorney.

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Sgt - just a guess on my part, but there may be a terminology gap. When I hear "original" from an NFA employee, I think a F-1, 2, 6, or 4467.... the document that introduced the firearm into registration.

 

Sometimes firearms change configuration - not a big deal, but the form should accurately reflect the firearm at the time of transfer. If it has changed since you acquired or is not right with what your form shows, a photo (sometimes) and brief statement explaining the difference should normally suffice. Of course, I told sandman that and he went on a roller coaster....

 

Another aspect to bear in mind is that some folks who buy these things have some "issues" - to the point of wanting designer forms built for personal taste. Some will also tamper with the firearms themselves in order to achieve that goal to include altering markings which turns the firearm into contranband. Not that they are trying to hurt anyone, but they would "just like it better" if it was marked with something else or the form said _____ instead of _____.

 

TD:

 

article from early in the case you asked about: http://www2.citypaper.com/news/story.asp?id=20486

 

If you have time, there is a link to the indictment and you can get an idea as to what the case was based on.

 

Update from December at conclusion of trial for last two defendants w/links to jury verdict sheets:

 

http://www.nfatcaforums.org/showthread.php?58-Machine-Gun-quot-Transplant-quot-Case

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I think something has happened and/or is happening with the NFA records. Not sure what. I am thinking

if a lot of their records were lost or corrupted. I have been in business for 35+ years. I get checked every 2-3 years.

My NFA guns have been the same for many years. And for 35+ years all has been well. My last compliance

check (a couple of months ago) the agent showed up with a printout from NFA listing what I had and it was all

wrong. It only listed 1/2 of the guns I have.

My bound book which has been checked and approved for 35+ years means nothing. I have to go digging

for the original forms from 30 years ago to prove to the agent that yes, these guns are registered to me. I

really think they had no idea and were using my records to make their records. It all ended up ok but I dread

to think what would have happened if their printout showed I had MORE than what I had instead of less!

If they come in and tell that the registry says you own guns you never owned how do you fix that? It all

ended up ok because I had the records but some of it was dumb luck.

Be ready for anything.

 

Bob

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During my inspection last September the inspector asked for copies of all my NFA firearms. What surprised me is that he had no idea before the inspection that I had a SOT in addition to a C&R FFL or that I owned NFA firearms. His records only showed that I had a O1 FFL.

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I haven't had any problems, but my FFL said the CLEO had not listed his title on some forms and was sent back. On one of mine I have no title ( Sheriff) but it does say Sheriff of such & such county, one just Sheriff.

One 12" barrel, one machine gun, one sub machine gun. My 28N's history( have the paperwork & photos), goes back to 1935 with 12" bbl & 34" length and model is 1928.

I guess when I ever sell, get it corrected then if that's even an issue.

 

 

OCM

Edited by OCM
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recon:

 

Something to bear in mind that will not read on the ever reliable internet is that the inventory printouts are not necessarily a true representative of the registration record. Every time I have been contacted about a majorly out of whack inventory, there has been an issue with how the query was done. For example - a friend who has been around the block in the business a similar length of time to you over the years has had things transferred to him by others using

 

1. Licensee name

 

2. Trade Name

 

3. Both

 

If a query is made using the name it will get one result, trade name another, and both a third. The only way to really do it and have it come as close as possible is to run at least 1&2 then cross reference them, weeding out the duplicates. Add other levels of possibilities for a typo on data entry or a misspelling by the applicant (ie recon guns vs recon gun), changes in trade name, interstate moves, etc.

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The Lone Ranger,

Thank you for the links to the information on that case. I enjoyed scanning through the documents. I am interested in one point: How did the ATF learn or find out about this scheme? Was it an internal review of documents, an informant, suspicions of an examiner, etc? I am sure this information came out in court. Perhaps, the information is in the documents you cited, but I missed it.

 

Thanks!

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It would not surprise me if one of the ones involved didn't brag about what he was doing and that brought the charges down on them.

 

 

The Lone Ranger,

Thank you for the links to the information on that case. I enjoyed scanning through the documents. I am interested in one point: How did the ATF learn or find out about this scheme? Was it an internal review of documents, an informant, suspicions of an examiner, etc? I am sure this information came out in court. Perhaps, the information is in the documents you cited, but I missed it.

 

Thanks!

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I have a Colt Navy in transfer (8 1/2 months now) that lists Thompson as the manufacturer. Not wanting to upset the apple cart I copied the info directly from the previous form 4; figuring I would "correct" it thur ATF after the form gets approived. I would like to see if indeed they corrected the form to read Colt as being the manufacturer. This form 4 along with another for a 1918 BAR were approved February 24th (a Sunday?) but the paperwork has been MIA. I am expecting my certified copies of the forms tomorrow so I can take possession. I have a friend who is going thru the same thing with a Mac 10 that was approved less than 3 weeks after my forms and his paperwork is also no where to be found. Any one else having this issue?

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