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Fake Ithaca M1911A1 - Any Other Examples?


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#41 Machodoc

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 07:57 PM

Here's a 1924 Argentine Navy contract Colt with the same faulty last "E" in the roll mark.  It's interesting that one of the guns in the second shipment (78 guns each) that went out in 1925 had a roll mark that appears to be about the same, with the exception of that third "E".

 

 

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Edited by Machodoc, 30 October 2016 - 08:05 PM.

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#42 JimB

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 02:27 PM

Well I can add a bit of commentary on the subject of fakery...

 

It's been going on with collectible arms for many years

probably started with Colt Walker models in the 30s or 40s at the earliest.  Those were extremely well done but had the wrong pitch to certain screws.  Legend was there was a artist out east that manufactured a small number of them.

By the 1960s the game was CSA guns.  Most was crude, simple CSA marking of original guns but some knocked off Confederate revolvers for big money.

 

Same era characters started knocking off "Indian" guns

Main trick was running down solid head brass tacks and of course aging

the bulk of tacked up guns are utter complete forgeries.

 

By the 70s folks were getting into WWII items

maybe 74' I bought a mess of crap from a Vet that included a fair number of Nazi era proofing stamps that he returned to the States with.  Shoebox full...

Several different high end dealers cleaned me out, within a year Waffen proofed Carbines, Garands and 1911s started showing up at major premiums at shows on their tables.

this was the 70s.

 

On 1911s understand up through the late 70s new old stock US&S slides were available.  I still have one left from the good ole' days

Flip side is for the most part a US&S, much less an Ithica had little premium to it in the 70s...Ithicas were priced in the same range as Remington Rands.  It was Colts that achieved a slight if any premium.

 

This started to change by the later 80s, by the 90s characters were starting to by mix masters and swapping parts hither & thither...

all in an effort to recreate a proper US&S or Ithica 1911 to resell at inflated $$$

One popular deal was to use the NOS US&S slides in these build ups.

 

A fair share of these guys doing this had cut their teeth on old west crap.  Primarily SA Colts and Winchesters.  It was so bad with SAAs you needed to carry a frame gauge. Winchester were a serious mess as a fare share the only SN was on the detachable lower tang.  Guys literally were building special order guns around a loose lower tang and aging them.  This practice had been faciitated by WACA's control over the Winchester archive at Cody.  At one point the jackass running the archive would actually alter physical records and run you out a faked up "factory" letter to back up your forgery for a price  in the 90s...!

At the time I was tight with a bunch of those involved on both sides.  Plenty of shady crap was being done.

 

The Cody Museum had ended up with truck loads of Winchester bits, plenty of vintage actions & receivers, etc they were using to pay off resto artists...yeah much of the current collection are restorations.  I'd buy the traded items up and remarket elsewhere.  Looking back, I was part of the problem.

 

Another venue that was hammered particularly hard were Trapdoor Saddle Ring Carbine fakes with a focus on Custer's era as you could still purchase saddle bars and carbine sight assms inexpensively from dixie gun works up through the 90s.  I was buying cutdowns in the 70s & 80s reworking them for maybe a $100 profit margin.  Never sold them as the real deal but other vendors who always bought them up did.

 

You can still find Remington Rolling Block .50 carbines

Guys...most are total fakes.

Up through the 90s Dixie was still selling nearly new .50-45 Navy carbine take off bbls...old Bannerman stock

real simple matter to swap in a new front end.  Many reamed the chambers to .50-70

I did a bunch in the 90s, the bbls with forends & bands were like $45.00

 

Now I need to interject reality into all this.

What really is a "Fake"

Today there are loads of folks debating what's a proper Garand or Carbine.

Uh sorry, the vast majority that saw service were rebuilt at least once, maybe two or three times.

Anything that's a fully "matching" early gun is likely pieced together for profit.

Facts are in the 70s the only matching early Carbines I trusted were ones that came down from Canada as the Canucks never upgraded their M1s where America did.

Garands, same deal

1911 contracts even more so.

The reality is US military service firearms from the 20th century generally didn't survive as they were initially issued.  Most of the ones you see offered are the result of guys building them back that way either for fun or profiteering off the dumb or lazy, often both.

 

I tend to roll my eyes these days over much of the Internet.

Good example is SS marked arms

Number of folks claim the SS never ever marked their arms "SS"

Poppycock...!

Understand back in the 70s SS stamps were really NOT a selling point

I ran into them on CZ and Radom pistols, once a French 35A.  All were Vet purchases, many with DD paperwork and they were pretty cheap.

Think we still have a Radom with a very small SS stamp on the frame.  Came with a Croation SS marked holster, vet gun.

Yet kiddos will try to claim these things never existed.  Again Poppycock.

 

Problema is that Nazi items have been faked up HARD for decades now

That too started in the 70s

Back then you could buy kits consisting of NOS bits to build up SA & SS daggers.  As a kiddo I assembled a bunch, one of many mainstays for me when I started setting up at shows way back then before I discovered Beer & Bitches

Doctrine today is Everything is suspect which is as it should be.


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#43 StooperZero

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 03:01 PM

Good example is SS marked arms

Number of folks claim the SS never ever marked their arms "SS"

 

 

Folks need to read books vs crap on the internet, Himmler was dead nuts about the procurement procedures for SS equipment so it was distinctive vs what the standard german army received. 


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