First-Time Purchase of a Model 1928 - Other Questions RE M1A1

[Hopalong]

Hello,

 

I'm a new member who is very interested in acquiring a Model 1928. Based upon my budget, I can most likely afford a West Hurley, Bridgeport, or Savage model. I've gone through the FAQ page a few times and surfed the web, but still have certain questions. I'm hoping I can get some guidance to avoid buying a $20,000+ boat anchor.

 

How many members own a West Hurley that has NOT been worked on by Paul Krogh? How well do your guns function? Have you experienced any serious issues or damage firing them? (I ask, because Mr. Krogh is not taking any new work as he is backed up six years).

 

With regard to Bridgeport and Savage models, how do replaced parts and refinish affect value? I'm a longtime Colt collector, and in that world originality and condition mean everything. I see lots of WWII-era Thompsons that have replaced parts and/or have been refinished. Does their value relate more to how well they function?

 

I appreciate any information or advice you can provide.

 

Thanks,

 

Tim

Edited April 4, 2020 by Hopalong

[LSU Tiger]

Glad to have you here, Tim. As far as government-issue Thompsons go, I'd buy Frank Iannamico's excellent book, "American Thunder III." He goes in depth on government Thompsons. I've also sent a PM.

 

https://www.gunshowbooks.com/cgi-bin/webc.exe/st_prod.html?p_prodid=GS419124

[jpw43]

Hello,

 

I'm a new member who is very interested in acquiring a Model 1928. Based upon my budget, I can most likely afford a West Hurley, Bridgeport, or Savage model. I've gone through the FAQ page a few times and surfed the web, but still have certain questions. I'm hoping I can get some guidance to avoid buying a $20,000+ boat anchor.

 

How many members own a West Hurley that has NOT been worked on by Paul Krogh? How well do your guns function? Have you experienced any serious issues or damage firing them? (I ask, because Mr. Krogh is not taking any new work as he is backed up six years).

 

With regard to Bridgeport and Savage models, how do replaced parts and refinish affect value? I'm a longtime Colt collector, and in that world originality and condition mean everything. I see lots of WWII-era Thompsons that have replaced parts and/or have been refinished. Does their value relate more to how well they function?

 

I appreciate any information or advice you can provide.

 

Thanks,

 

Tim

West Hurleys can function great, but if you go that route on a non-PK'ed one be sure to check the Blish lock and rear of the receiver.

Mine had major problems with the Blish lock channels on the receiver. Fortunately, PK fixed it and runs like a top now. But his work isn't cheap, and there is that long wait time.

Edited March 17, 2020 by jpw43

[MrBill]

Congrats on getting Thompson fever. This board is full of great advice. But a word of warning.....I bought a 28 Savage from Morphy a couple years ago...not a great deal but i was looking for a savage 28 so my Colts could stay in the safe. Well, I assumed the experts at Morphy inspected the internals as well as the descriptions of the wood and exterior metals??? I took the gun to the range and it fired six rounds and it quit.Field stripping the gun revealed that it was missing the oiler and the recoil spring had been cut to six inchs After replacing the spring and oiler it still would not fire. I swapped bolts and put about a quart of Mobil 1 in the receiver and so far it appears to be working. If i buy another Thompson I will shoot it live fire. I suggest based on my experience to shoot it. Just because the gun is clean and complete does not mean that it has problems and a PK job for a Westie is about four grand and a four year wait. Good Luck

Edited March 18, 2020 by MrBill

[Vettom]

FWIW I chose a WH (was not aware it had been PKd) but had lots of spare parts and I knew I could shoot it add nice wood more parts, literature and it had 21 and 28 internals. I couldnt afford a Colt or 28 Savage so it was a great choice since I dont worry about it being original. I have other Collectables so I get original. It runs great as a 21which I like better than a 28. Welcome to the board Tim as the members have been great source of info parts and most of all knowledge for me as a relative newbie.

[Hopalong]

FWIW I chose a WH (was not aware it had been PKd) but had lots of spare parts and I knew I could shoot it add nice wood more parts, literature and it had 21 and 28 internals. I couldnt afford a Colt or 28 Savage so it was a great choice since I dont worry about it being original. I have other Collectables so I get original. It runs great as a 21which I like better than a 28. Welcome to the board Tim as the members have been great source of info parts and most of all knowledge for me as a relative newbie.

That's very interesting. I didn't realize you could essentially turn a 28 into a 21.

[Vettom]

I had 21 fire controls and 21 mag release fixed so it is great for a clone 😎 next I will add some figured dress wood to it.

[TD.]

 

FWIW I chose a WH (was not aware it had been PKd) but had lots of spare parts and I knew I could shoot it add nice wood more parts, literature and it had 21 and 28 internals. I couldnt afford a Colt or 28 Savage so it was a great choice since I dont worry about it being original. I have other Collectables so I get original. It runs great as a 21which I like better than a 28. Welcome to the board Tim as the members have been great source of info parts and most of all knowledge for me as a relative newbie.

That's very interesting. I didn't realize you could essentially turn a 28 into a 21.

 

Hopalong,

Welcome to the Thompson Forum.

 

You are in a very expensive market. There is a lot to learn about the Thompson submachine gun. More importantly, there is a lot of expensive junk on the market. You need to learn the product before spending your money (unless you have a lot of money and it don't care to waste it). Given your early parameters on Thompsons, buy American Thunder III by Frank Iannamico, available at:

 

https://www.smallarmsreview.com/inventory/detail.item.cfm?product_id=166

 

Read the book several times and apply the information in this book to Thompson guns you see for sale.

 

Join The American Thompson Association and/or the Thompson Collectors Association and attend a Show and Shoot this year in Ohio. The experience will be priceless and make you a better informed buyer. Information on each organization is available on this Board.

 

It takes time and effort to become an informed buyer. But the fun is learning your way and shopping for that perfect Thompson submachine gun! Slow down and enjoy the search.

 

ADVICE: West Hurley Thompson guns can be very problematic. The 1928AC variations usually make very good shooters and are worth the extra money (over a West Hurley). This is only one option. Read Frank's book to understand why.

 

TD.

[cbmott]

I own a WH28 that was not sent to PK. I bought it from Ruben Mendiola but it had chambering issues (chamber too small). Dan Block was able to do some good work with light milling and swap out a part of two for GI ones but luckily I had mostly GI parts in it already and it ran great afterwards. Even after Dan’s work I was worried about the Blish slots like every other WH owner and sent it away to John Andrewski since I ran in to the same issue you know about PK’s workload. Andrewski gave it a thorough inspection and said it was machined well enough to not cause major issues and that I should enjoy my investment, which I am. Andrewski can rework the slots for you if they are in bad shape if you get a WH and can do most heavy gunsmithing. Dan Block is also pretty great, he doesn’t rework the slots but can do many other services. If you get a military 28 then that’s not an issue. At the time I bought mine I didn’t see too many non WH guns around but l do have a wish I would have waited a bit to see what was out there more. I love my WH though and most people you meet on this board are supportive no matter what Thompson you have. If you do run into the elitists that look down on WH then who cares because no one can tell you how to spend your money. Long story short it runs great after a bit of work(like many WH Thompson’s) but there are folks out there who can help.

Some recommendations to help.

-Read TD’s article on WH parts http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=224

-talk to John Andrewski, Dan Block or Bob at Philadelphia Ordnance

-gets all the books that are recommended and just enjoy learning about the Thompson even if you don’t plan to collect a Colt/M1/whatever

-YouTube has some pretty good videos and I had a post up a while back with many links to them so if you’re a visual learner def take a look.

-pick what works best for you

[bigbore]

It is truly a buyers market right now. I wouldn't even consider a WH with the price of real Thompsons as low as they are.

You can grab this one for $21,500 delivered. ETA - my listing

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/forums/index.php?/topic/12763-1928ac-bridgeport-thompson-w-more-extras-22k/

Edited March 18, 2020 by bigbore

[Hopalong]

I wish this forum didn't limit the number of positive votes you can give in a day. You're all being very helpful, which I apprediate so much.

 

Cbmott, I've corresponded quite a bit with Dan Block. He is a very nice guy.

[TD.]

Hopalong,

The 1928AC for sale by bigbore, above, looks nice in pictures and is certainly priced right. That said, you have to understand exactly what an Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport (AOB) 1928AC variation is. Frank's book will provide you with the valuable information you need on most all of the Thompson variations. The Thompson associations Shows & Shoots will let you see these variations in person and speak to the owners. Again, you need to understand the product - and that takes time.

[Hopalong]

Thank you, Tom. I will try to be patient.

[Hopalong]

As I indicated above, I am hoping to buy a nice Model 1928. So far, from my research, I've narrowed down my interest to the Savage Model 1928. I would also be interested in a WH '28 with the PK treatment, although I understand they don't come up on the market very often.

 

However, I've seen some nice M1A1s for sale and I'm wondering whether members enjoy shooting one model over the other - assuming a vertical foregrip on the Model '28. I realize this may be too subjective of a question, but I thought I'd see what you think.

 

I know that the wartime M1A1s ran the risk of broken riveted grip-mounts for the foregrip. Has anyone experienced that problem with the WH M1? I'm guessing that probably resulted in the original guns due to heavy use in combat.

 

Do the WH M1s have a removable stock, or are they fixed like the originals?

 

Thanks,

 

Tim

Edited April 4, 2020 by Hopalong

[bigbore]

As I indicated above, I am hoping to buy a nice Model 1928. So far, from my research, I've narrowed down my interest to the Savage Model 1928. I would also be interested in a WH '28 with the PK treatment, although I understand they don't come up on the market very often.

 

However, I've seen some nice M1A1s for sale and I'm wondering whether members enjoy shooting one model over the other - assuming a vertical foregrip on the Model '28. I realize this may be too subjective of a question, but I thought I'd see what you think.

 

I know that the wartime M1A1s ran the risk of broken riveted grip-mounts for the foregrip. Has anyone experienced that problem with the WH M1? I'm guessing that probably resulted in the original guns due to heavy use in combat.

 

Do the WH M1s have a removable stock, or are they fixed like the originals?

 

Thanks,

 

Tim

 

If you want to shoot it regularly, get an M1A1. My M1A1 is riveted and just as solid as it was 70+yrs ago. The M1A1s are a more simple design, and more durable. I have seen a couple cracked and welded 1928 receivers at the rear when they are pretty thin. The stock can come off, but are not "QD" like the 28s. I dont like shooting with a vertical grip on any variant. The bonus of the M1A1s is the asking prices seem to be more inline with the soft market, but regardless its a great time to be buying either!

Edited April 4, 2020 by bigbore

[john]

I like '28's and have two....an AOC and a Savage.

Stick mags are fun but I like drums too.

As with any gun (and especially MG's) you will have a need for spare parts, barrels, etc. as they do break occasionally. Buy parts now as the prices don't go down.

These are military guns and made for hard combat use. As such, they run, and run, and run.

Buy what you fancy, add some spare parts and spend the rest in ammo and a good camera, as you'll want lots of smiling pictures!

Edited April 4, 2020 by john

[mnshooter]

 

I know that the wartime M1A1s ran the risk of broken riveted grip-mounts for the foregrip. Has anyone experienced that problem with the WH M1? I'm guessing that probably resulted in the original guns due to heavy use in combat.

 

Do the WH M1s have a removable stock, or are they fixed like the originals?

 

Thanks,

 

Tim

It would be very uncommon to see a WH with a true riveted GI grip mount. But, if someone out there has one, I hope they can post a photo.

While some of the early WH production used the 1/2" one piece GI mounts, most used a simple piece of 3/4" wide aluminum flat.

This is why the forends have a 3/4" channel, instead of the 1/2" width found on all genuine Thompsons.

You can usually recognize the WH in close up photos; the part touching the barrel fin is round; it's a simple stud installed in the aluminum flat,

rather than the graceful contoured milling on the 1/2" one piece mounts (This would be visible only with the vertical foregrip installed).

The GI riveted mount used a similar stud, so a first glance might confuse the two. The GI has a slight contour on top, to match the barrel diameter.

The WH aluminum bar does not have this top contour; it's a plain cylinder. The WH also will not have the exposed rivet head near the receiver.

Just to be clear, this front support stud is only visible if the vertical foregrip is used; it is completely hidden inside the horizontal forend.

To make things more confusing, the WH "True M1" production used a similar 3/4" bar, but made of steel instead of aluminum.

 

If your original M1/M1A1 has the riveted type, and it's sound, I would personally leave it alone -it's the original.

Today's gentle treatment of a Thompson at the range has zero relationship with the handling of Thompsons in combat.

 

But; a warning: If it does break, it might only loosen and get wobbly, or could possibly come completely off during a burst, and you

could find your support hand in front of the muzzle. That's probably a very unlikely "if", but something worth keeping in mind.

One of the most experienced gun handlers on this board has a scar through his hand, because bullets don't care about odds.

 

All M1/M1A1 stocks, GI and WH, are fixed -they are removable only when you remove the two mounting screws.

Edited April 4, 2020 by mnshooter

[JJX]

As I indicated above, I am hoping to buy a nice Model 1928. So far, from my research, I've narrowed down my interest to the Savage Model 1928. I would also be interested in a WH '28 with the PK treatment, although I understand they don't come up on the market very often.

 

However, I've seen some nice M1A1s for sale and I'm wondering whether members enjoy shooting one model over the other - assuming a vertical foregrip on the Model '28. I realize this may be too subjective of a question, but I thought I'd see what you think.

 

I know that the wartime M1A1s ran the risk of broken riveted grip-mounts for the foregrip. Has anyone experienced that problem with the WH M1? I'm guessing that probably resulted in the original guns due to heavy use in combat.

 

Do the WH M1s have a removable stock, or are they fixed like the originals?

 

Thanks,

 

Tim

 

Tim

 

To address your question as to shooting preference, I have a '28 and an M1A1. After many rounds through both, I shoot the M1A1 better and therefore shoot it more often. Perhaps because I much prefer the sight picture over the adjustable one on the '28. Since you can put either foregrip on either gun, I would not let that have much influence on choice of model. Photos from WWII show original-style and improvised vertical foregrips on both models. I am happy with either vertical or horizontal grip.

 

I suppose the removable stock has SOME degree of utility, but I do not miss that feature on my M1A1. The ones I have used had some degree of movement and the M1A1 feels more solid.

[NFA amnesty]

I love my USGI M1A! and another member has just listed one for 20k on this forum.

[Grasshopper]

Hi All,

 

With respect to the removable stock on the M1. Here is a picture of my shooter M1. I got around the stock issue by just slipping a '28 lower onto the M1. Ok. Doesn't align in the back like the M1 lower but it does give me a QD stock to pack the gun off to the range.

 

I love the M1. Aside from the '21A they are the only common Tommys w/o the compensator to clean after spending quality time at the range.

 

I've got a pair of WH 28's. Both run well w/o PK (yet). Both have military internals. Both have tight chambers. There is/was a helpful thread years back on checking the bolt travel vs blish lock distance and some reasonable and not-so-reasonable looking blish lock slots. Mine look to be on the reasonable end. I've gotten over most of that with 22RF conversion kits

 

Enjoy the search,

 

Grasshopper