Gangster Gun, Serial # Revealed !

[OCM]

From what I've gleaned thru the years, the guys going into the bank , preferred a stockless weapon and a XX box magazine, with spares in their pocket.

[Bridgeport28A1]

I enjoyed the article, too. I wonder if any bullets from the shootout are still around? If so, it would be a fun forensic examination to compare them to CC's Colt Thompson...

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

The next time I am in Brainerd I will try to remember to stop at the bank building and see if there are any noticible bullet holes/ impacts in the ceiling. Not sure if the tin ceiling remains. I mentioned the bank and the gangster era robbery to my friend who lives in the next town west of Brainerd and he knew the bank building is a consignment thrift store presently. Edited October 25, 2017 by Bridgeport28A1

[OCM]

According to Helmer's book, the YMCA building got riddled heavy with bullets.

[Petroleum 1]

According to Helmer's book, the YMCA building got riddled heavy with bullets.

Do you think they were outfitted with drums ??

[gijive]

Petroleum 1,

 

They certainly had drums available to them (see the picture of the gun recovered from Tommy Carroll), but whether they used them at the Brainerd Bank is anybody's guess. Maybe the newspaper accounts make some mention of it.

[OCM]

Pet-1

 

I really don't know either, as Chuck says the picture shows a L drum. Van was outside with a Thompson in a basket as a lookout, possibly had a L drum in there. Brainerd was cold that morning, about freezing. This is why I guess they/others tended not to use a drum hidden beneath the heavy overcoats. To bulky. They were using a Buick ( stolen) as a get- a -way car, these were big cars in the day- Guys loaded with Thompsons, big heavy overcoats, $$ bags sometimes hostages . Not Terraplanes, these were the personal cars. Fast.

I can't remember but Dillinger was robbing a bank or something and his L drum dropped out of the gun, so I guess they did use drums sometimes.

The Nelson Thompsons at Little Bo had L drums as did the one Van had there, actually Dillinger's Thompson.

[colt21a]

I would assume they would go in with a 20 in the gun and a spare in pocket.since easy to carry no rattling around and easy to conceal. And they figured won't be much to rob, And if any guards acted up 20 rounds or so would control anything. and had drums in car for back-up.I think the last bank was robbed with a Thompson around 1957/58 era. And I know in Markham IL. they had a MP-40 they captured from a guy robbing a bank.I sold that one to Peter Kokalis decades ago. He returned it to the dealer saying it was two worn for his collection. Stupid move it had History attached to it. Anyhow back to the Thompson's.

 

Colt21aRon

[OCM]

Been working with the Brainerd- Crow County- Historical Society on the Nelson robbery. I asked my contact there if by chance there were bullet holes on the building. He came back today, I think personally checked it out, that there are still bullet holes on the outside of the building that used to be the bank and on the ceiling.

Good damn chance these were shot from Colt Chopper's Thompson. There is also a chance they will be doing a story on the event now, based on Colt Chopper's Thompson , in the local newspaper- Hoping to stir up some activity. Never know what will pop up. Bullets, stories, what the bank did with the Thompson etc.

When Colt Chopper gets back from his trip to Paris to visit relatives, be going over this further- Keep you posted on any events.

 

OCM

[ghostsoldier]

It would be cool to climb into the ceiling of the bank, and see if any of the bullets were still lodged in the woodwork.

 

Rob

[OCM]

yes it would, story has it they drove away from the bank, firing Thompsons from the Buick, shooting the hell out of everything, even stopping to toss spent brass out of the car. Be interesting if someone there still has some slugs that could be traced to CC's Thompson. One of the locals has a piece of the original ceiling with holes in it, that's displayed I think at his business there.

[full auto 45]

The owner of the shop in what was the bank building has the tiles, so I read on their page. I told CC we need to make a drive, or a friend fly us, to Brainard and talk to the owner of the building. Maybe take the trophy with him. I bet we could get the local newspaper to do a story on CC (and maybe take a photo of CC) with the Tommy.

I'll have to talk to CC when he gets back from vacation in Brazil or Fiji or something like that.

[OCM]

You guys should, do St Paul, Bennet Apartment , or they have a St Paul gangster tour you can go on. I'd of already done that a week after CC pulled the Barrel. He seemed VERY interested in doing something like that when we talked Monday- Make him go.............

[john]

Been gone all summer with planning daughters wedding down in Texas. Now this is interesting as my family history is huge in Brainerd. In fact, I'll be headed up tomorrow for the end of deer season....we own property there and I know Brainerd well.

I'd be interested in possibly chaufferring some of you'se mugs around to check this all out.....very interesting stuff here!

[HANS]

Hans,

 

Good question. We are in the process of trying to obtain more information on the actual raid. If we are successful, I will post the results in the future. In the meantime, here is a lightened version of the newspaper photo.

 

Recovered Weapons.jpg

 

 

Has anyone made inroads with the ID of the seized weapons? Still interested! Thanks!

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[Colt Chopper]

I remember reading from the Dillinger files, when Joseph Bennett made his deposition, he stated that he never saw a machinegun until he was shown the one pictured at the Minneapolis police department. He also stated he had never owned a gun until Tommy Carroll had given him a shotgun for hunting. I would assume the firearm in the middle back ground, is the shotgun given to Bennett, since they confiscated all firearms in the residence. The long gun being held by the detective on the left, appears to be a rifle, possibly Remington model 8, but no description is mentioned.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Colt Chopper

[HANS]

I remember reading from the Dillinger files, when Joseph Bennett made his deposition, he stated that he never saw a machinegun until he was shown the one pictured at the Minneapolis police department. He also stated he had never owned a gun until Tommy Carroll had given him a shotgun for hunting. I would assume the firearm in the middle back ground, is the shotgun given to Bennett, since they confiscated all firearms in the residence. The long gun being held by the detective on the left, appears to be a rifle, possibly Remington model 8, but no description is mentioned.

 

 

I must have missed this bit, is the Bennett interview from the Dillinger files in the FBI digital vault? I'm constantly dismayed that they didn't bother to publish the complete file, only a limited part up to his death.

 

Remington Model 8 was my first guess as well, but every time I look at the photo I get new doubts ...

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[Colt Chopper]

23 of 30.pdf

Section 23 of 30 in the Dillinger files. Start around page 66 for the Bennett's statement.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Colt Chopper

[HANS]

23 of 30.pdf

Section 23 of 30 in the Dillinger files. Start around page 66 for the Bennett's statement.

 

Thanks! I had actually read and even referenced it already, just forgot all about it

 

You know, I've been thinking. Basic weapon IDs were so ridiculously bad at the time, the long arm on the left doesn't even have to be an "automatic." Not unlike today, people would see a Winchester Model 92 lever-action and call it an "automatic rifle."

 

If it doesn't have to be an semiautomatic rifle, then there are more possibilties. Note the box-like item on the left side of the weapon. Could this be a Krag Sporter rifle? It would have the magazine on the left side plus the bolt handle (the white knob) behind it.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[full auto 45]

A little bit of interesting. There is no 3242 25th avenue south in Minneapolis. It also appears that on the original document, someone went over the "1" and made it look like a "2". You can see it does not look like the typed "2" like the others in the 32 or the 42. A quick Google maps shows a large multi apartment building at 3215 South 25th Street in Minneapolis.

[Desperado419]

. Edited June 12, 2021 by Desperado419

[john]

Mike mentioned 3242 25th avenue south in Minneapolis as not a valid address.

Knowing this area pretty well it has undergone many changes in 90+ years so possibly that address was valid at one point and burned, or leveled for the apartment.

Can't find my copy of "Dillinger slept here" but that address or one in that space may have been mentioned by the author.

Edited June 13, 2021 by john

[john]

Not to toss another possibility in the discussion, but in looking hard at that last police image, it appears that the shape on the side of Colt Choppers gun is the same shape as the lower of the two Thompson's, BUT looking at the gripframe, that grind shape on CC's looks almost like the gun on the top.

Is it possible if these were used by a police agency and eventually amnestied that those two lowers could have gotten mixed up? Or maybe if the FBI tried to acud-raise the serial numbers, git the lowers mismatched (or they were by gang members and the authorities returned the guns with properly matched (yet otherwise invisible serial numbers?).

Edited June 13, 2021 by john

[gijive]

Not to toss another possibility in the discussion, but in looking hard at that last police image, it appears that the shape on the side of Colt Choppers gun is the same shape as the lower of the two Thompson's, BUT looking at the gripframe, that grind shape on CC's looks almost like the gun on the top.

Is it possible if these were used by a police agency and eventually amnestied that those two lowers could have gotten mixed up? Or maybe if the FBI tried to acud-raise the serial numbers, git the lowers mismatched (or they were by gang members and the authorities returned the guns with properly matched (yet otherwise invisible serial numbers?).

John,

 

The lineage of Colt Chopper's gun has already been established. If your post is referring to the two guns found at Little Bohemia, those guns were confiscated by the FBI and were not released into private channels. Chopper's gun was already confiscated by law enforcement authorities prior to the Little Bohemia raid.

[john]

So CCsgun is not one in the images there?

Where did I get that idea?

Just noting the grind marks on the side of his gun are shaped almost identical to the lower gun in the last image and the grip frame on his gun has grind area shape like the lower on the top gun

Whoever did those probably did a few at the same time I'd guess and was pretty good at the wheel.

Edited June 14, 2021 by john

[Gnat]

Read through this thread last night. What a great find and research! I would hope that someone would take all this information and photos and put together an article for a major magazine like the "American Rifleman."

Gnat