huggytree Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) trying to learn MP40's....what does the MES mean next to the serial # and also Black Bakelite? everyone ive seen is the redish brown...what does this mean? looks like unmodified charging handle Edited November 9, 2017 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 Nice looking gun. Grips came in several colors. The red ones are rare but black ones are common. Interesting that the safety bolt upgrade was never done. No idea what the MES marking is ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) Looks like a beater MP-40 to me I bet the internals need help. Seen many like that rust pits worn end caps. mag well area.and stock after you unfold is all wobbly side by side play and normally a inch or two up and down when locked. And best to grab the rear grip and mag well and shake normally a loose fit in that area. Yes it is a rare today to find a outstanding MP-38 MP-40 most are already in private collections, And won't be out till they are gone. I know of a few right now MP-38 and MP-40 complete rigs complete all matched and mint cond. {And of course NOT FOR SALE } I would pay the guy a easy 30 grand for his MP-38 today. He has 10 grand into it. He mentioned to his son. ha haSo it will be tied up for another 30 years with all the extra's Colt 21A Ron Edited November 9, 2017 by colt21a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 its on the MP40 registry as matching #'s....as far as condition it looks the same as all the other mp40's in original shape do doesnt it? everyone ive seen...i actually thought this one looked a bit nicer than many of them...(ha) i have not gotten enough pics yet to judge this gun for condition.....really curious what the MES stands for..its blued inside the stamp, so it appears to be original stamped on the gun in 1941.. at this point im just trying to learn and its a new gun with some different things to it.... show me a nice one that sold (all original) ?? ill have to look back at sold GB auctions as ive not seen one look much better or worse than this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black River Militaria CII Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 MES is not a factory stamping or anything that looks period to me, and looks to me like it was added to the serial number on registration. Have several registered MGs initially registered by an individual who added a suffix of his initials to the serial when registered.Commonly the serial number on the top rear housing of the lower was used to registered the gun, and not the receiver number which is fine if the receiver number matches. Quite a few MP40s have a different serial on the receiver with a different number on the housing that was used as the registration number. You might ask the owner if the tube number matches the housing number and if the MES is on the tube number. Decent shooter/collector grade gun. Nothing wrong with that since you can shoot it and not worry too much about the finish, etc. FWIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) thanks for the insight.....i dont seem to be able to get any info from any seller anymore....they dont want to take pics or answer questions...they just want a quick sale....i doubt this gun will end up being mine, but its out there and i wanted to learn since ive not seen the markings before i would not purchase this gun without 25+ pics showing every single serial # and close ups of the condition...im trying to get a copy of the form 4 also.... take 25 awesome pics and post the gun on GB and it would sell quickly....instead these sellers give you a couple of pics, barely any info (this one i had to ask 2x's how many mags it comes with)....eventually they all sell......its frustrating for me since i no longer buy guns based on trust & luck like i have in the past (tell me most of you havent done the same thing multiple times eh?)...i base my decisions on 25+ pics now...if they cant give me more than 3 out of focus pics or 5' away pics i wont buy from them.... on this purchase i may just buy a plane ticket as im tired of the games dealers/sellers play......put $500 into the purchase just to make me feel better...fly back with all the parts minus the receiver thanks! Edited November 9, 2017 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1952HRA Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 Huggytree if you are interested in learning about Mp40s and MP38s http://www.mp40.nl/index.php?page=mp-40 has a lot of good information on just about every part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 By Ron's standards I have a beater MP-40, even though it's an all matching gun with a perfect bore. It's just a few serials off of the one posted by the OP. The finish looks just about the same. Any MP-40 that was actually issued and used at the time probably shows the same honest wear, especially considering that the original hot blued finish was not durable. The receiver is tight on the frame on my gun, but the stock wiggles a bit. That in an of itself means nothing. The stock was not designed to be a tight, slop-free fit, folded or extended. Stock wiggle is not a sign of wear, nor does it mean parts have been switched out. These guns were registered using the serial number on the receiver, not the end cap. At least, they should have been. If that's not the case, there are a whole lot of parts kits floating around out there with the demilling cuts in the wrong place! I'd never spend the kind of money sellers are asking today without having examined the gun myself, in person. A buyer who doesn't want to travel is probably not particularly serious, in my view. My beater MP-40: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 Alex has a great site and great info. He put a few of my old ones on there. #349F was a early numbered one #7888C was my favorite numbers. After you get past having ten you start getting picky, Hopefully Huggy will find himself I nice one and not buy a Junker. And I don't mean that in German Aircraft. Colt21ARon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 By Ron's standards I have a beater MP-40, even though it's an all matching gun with a perfect bore. It's just a few serials off of the one posted by the OP. The finish looks just about the same. Any MP-40 that was actually issued and used at the time probably shows the same honest wear, especially considering that the original hot blued finish was not durable. The receiver is tight on the frame on my gun, but the stock wiggles a bit. That in an of itself means nothing. The stock was not designed to be a tight, slop-free fit, folded or extended. Stock wiggle is not a sign of wear, nor does it mean parts have been switched out. These guns were registered using the serial number on the receiver, not the end cap. At least, they should have been. If that's not the case, there are a whole lot of parts kits floating around out there with the demilling cuts in the wrong place! I'd never spend the kind of money sellers are asking today without having examined the gun myself, in person. A buyer who doesn't want to travel is probably not particularly serious, in my view. My beater MP-40:No you have a good honest wear gun. All matching and perfect bore means a lot. Just I was spoiled in young age having so many nice ones. Like Thompson's.you don't know how much it bugs me not being able to get my hands on the MP-38 I spoke off. all complete Rig matched and mint cond. bring back.But hey its all fun.. And History don't ever knock the Mp-40 you have TSMG guy. It is History, Just worn a little,Not sitting in the crate back at Haenel.....Colt21A Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 i look at this gun and i really dont think it looks all that bad at all for what it is.... 1952HRA---ive already found this website earlier today...and ive watched and read all i can on the gun..i have not yet bought a book though(which i should) im really looking at going in 2 directions....#1 all matching original or #2 Wilson/Erb tube.......i know there's $5-6k difference between them and im going to let the gun dictate which way i go...which ever i find the right deal on first wins.....Petro 1 found a gun i would have grabbed a month ago....Wilson tube in great condition from a dealer ive used and 100% trust.....sadly he beat me to it.... ive got to do a GB history of sold guns to get a further feel for whats out there and prices they have sold for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2017 (edited) more pics on this gun....its # matching (im told) except for the barrel....do you see any signs of a dewat ? a new barrel instantly makes me think of that...ive asked for a pic of the form 4 and pics of all the #'s on the gun to prove matching......im interested in this one as the new barrel lowers the price value and makes it a shooter grade Edited November 10, 2017 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted November 12, 2017 Report Share Posted November 12, 2017 Are you buying that or still shopping? If price is right. It will make a nice 'WAR DOG" looking shooter been there done that MP-40 with hooked bolt and non cut Receiver a win, win.Colt21A Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2017 (edited) what do you put the value at Ron? ive made an offer i felt was correct or close enough to bargain with...and would not even receive a counter offer... i asked for proof of matching #'s(its all supposed to be matching besides the barrel) and also a copy of the form 4....didnt get either.. i see a new barrel and i think rewat....with a new barrel its a parts gun and shooter grade.....price/offer reflects that...but of course they want full matching #'s price yes i want this gun....but not close to what the dealer is asking right now..i like its original finish....would prefer a 660, but i like the original hook PS--notice how they took 3 pics of that bolt...not 1 with a serial #....what does that tell you? tells me that serial # doesnt match or they arent smart enough to think #'s matching matters....on the positive side? pics are good enough quality to make an offer from and better than i typically see from sellers. Edited November 12, 2017 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speeddemon02 Posted November 12, 2017 Report Share Posted November 12, 2017 When I got mine it was black too, then I gave the whole thing a good cleaning. turned out the bakelite was just that dirty and came out looking really nice in the burnt rusty brown color it normally is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted November 12, 2017 Report Share Posted November 12, 2017 Well at todays wack job prices. I would say around $14 to $15 grand is more then fair offer. knock off for possible rewat re/barrel not match. However virgin uncut receiver for safety and hooked bolt voids out the rewat re/barrel.And it is original History not tube gun. so you get a plus for that...When my Wife was going through Cancer stuff in 2012 right around that time sold a 95% matched {minus barrel number} early 1940 660 code Steyr. with bring back history and doc's from when Audie Murphy was in battle, and the Lt. picked it up off a Waffen S.S. Sgt. surrendered it to him. with maps of battle and signed letter and bring back paperwork I gave Alex the MP-40 site, All the info on it. a true History Gem. the Soldat was issued the MP-40 in 1940 until 1944 when he was captured. An when I got the BIG C in 2017 another of my prizes sold also.many of them.so if you have the chance to get something good do it.>.JUST get all the info from them<I look back and won't get the chance again to what I had in the past. But was glad when I did have them.Don't even ask me about my Berlin Sniper K-43 all matched rig. bring back.Been trying to get that back for over five years now last offer was 7 grand. NO DEAL! Good luck just pressure them for all the info so you get the right gun for the right money.Colt21A Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2017 (edited) my offer was MORE than $15,000 for this gun.....i was blown off and told the gun will not sell for that price...not even a counter offer....i like this gun....id like to own it....but i cant force someone to see where the market is...i suspect in a month it will be on sale for close to my offer....i think at $14-15k this would be gone quickly....but then again i need some more pics to tell if its a rewat...im not educated enough unless its a hack job...original finish should help a mp40 newbie spot it id think.... its got GERMAN MANUFACTURE down for manufacturer...so i assume its not a rewat....a replacement barrel and most likly a few other things which i assumed with my offer..the again they didnt show me the form 4 after asking 4x's gotta beg people for pics and its annoying....im finding this with dealers and individuals......if they give you the pics you want guess what? your less likely to buy... so this week i made 2 offers on 2 guns......awaiting the rewat offer answer....this gun is probably dead for a month until i can try again Edited November 12, 2017 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted November 12, 2017 Report Share Posted November 12, 2017 Huggy you want pics of the inside frame barrel chamber area. for any welding or shaving of metal. Maybe this was a pour down barrel lead job. And person was too stupid to figure out how to get it all out. and just replaced barrel.Had a M3A1grease gun like that guy heated barrel. and bingo.. Sold me the gun for 50 bucks in 1973 I sold it the following year for 500. was a SARCO mail it out gun from 1965. Man how the times have changed. take time on the MP40'S. And I like this one more That steyr refinish funky chamber gun no way...And his price is freaking insane for today.Colt 21A Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 13, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2017 (edited) i think this one has a decent pic down the throat...not as nice as the other one where he didnt try to hide anything.... this one has the big advantage to me of the hook and unmodified charging slot....not sure what extra $$ that brings to the gun...the rewat has the advantage of $500 worth of spare mags and a parts kit(of which all the expensive parts are mostly gone and the rest reblued)......the rewat is also a 660...not sure how much that adds also rewat is a scary thing....i offered enough to cover myself in case i have to send it off for a repair....along with low enough so i can resell for low some day if the form 4 says GERMAN MANUFACTURE its Not a Rewat...correct? so i dont need to worry about lead down the barrel on this one if i can see the form 4....a Rewat would have the person who rewatted the guns name on the form 4 under manufacturer correct? Edited November 13, 2017 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted November 13, 2017 Report Share Posted November 13, 2017 Depends I have seen both on forms some try the old slide through back in the day... And it worked. Ask for who they got it from before. good luck Colt21A Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2017 Got word it sold for $20,000 right away I have no idea on values on these. Ive looked at previous auction selling prices and it makes no sense. Yet Ruben has one for $22,000 or $23,000 Not the market for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted November 14, 2017 Report Share Posted November 14, 2017 I agree there huggy i swear people buy these guns strictly by the way they look. The rewat you are looking at has every bit the history and the quality of franks ( mid matched) gun. Plus the 6 mags and parts kit yet it sits for months at 19k. Imo its the new bluing that turns off most buyers. Tube gun is a different story but they are thousands cheaper too idk what to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2017 (edited) Yet a tube will sell for $15,000 from Ruben in a couple days While one sits on subguns for 6 months for $12,500. Nearly identical. Edited November 14, 2017 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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