Canuck Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Savage Thompson S-18082 and S-18094 may be Savage Commercial Thompsons. Or not. Given their registration status as Pre-1986 Dealer Samples, I would not bet the farm these two early Savage Thompsons were sold commercially to a law enforcement organization by Auto-Ordnance Corporation in 1940. The lack of a past history is very problematic to this determination. I suggest a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to BATF to see when these Thompsons were born on the NFA Registry. I know of a privately owned early Savage Thompson in Canada within 10 numbers of both of these Savage Thompsons. It is very possible these Thompsons were imported into the USA long after World War II ended. A FOIA request may provide the necessary information to make this determination. If Jeff Miller is still around, I would also contact him and see what records he may still have for these guns. I like the grip on S-18094. Remove the vertical fore grips on both and look for an "S" mark in the grip mount channel. Sometimes the marking is difficult to see so view in plenty of light. All and all, very nice Pre-1986 Thompsons. I would spend some time attempting to find the history on these. Thanks for sharing! Very interesting .... these two certainly jumped off the page for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Yes. Both grip mounts have an "S" stamped into them. Also I just noticed that they were lightly marked "Interarms, Alex., VA." on the left side of the receiver. So do you think these were military exports? Maybe those racks marks on the trunions are from the military armory. More pics attached. SN# S18082 1st. SN# S18094 will follow in next post.firearm, I believe TD meant for you to check the actual wood for the S mark, not the metal grip mount. You might also want to remove the rear grip and check for an S mark on the wood. Very early Savage grips are shaped very much like the Colt era Remington made wood. If your rear grip on the guns doesn't have any markings near the hole for the bolt, it is most certainly a leftover Colt grip. If it has the S, it is obviously Savage made. Very nice guns, by the way. It is always a treat to see very early Savage 1928 Model Thompsons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 The Savage factory in Utica, New York manufactured both of these Savage Commercial Thompsons in June or July 1940. This is a great pair of early Savage Commercial Thompsons with what appears to be impeccable provenance. Did you obtain any paperwork from the Sheriff's Department during the sale? If not, I suggest a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. Given small number of owners, it should be a quick search for BATF. S marked barrels without an index line on the barrel collar indicates original barrels (to me). Showcasing the actual color in photographs can be difficult. I would guess the compensator is a very bright blue, the barrel a blue color and the receiver a dark or flat blue, perhaps somewhat blackish. Congratulations. These are quite a pair. I really like what I see. Please post more pictures : TD, from what I have seen so far on genuine savage commercials, the barrels are not what I would call "blue" I think they're just a little smoother and closer to blue than the receiver because the lathe turning of the barrel results in a smoother finish than the milling operation used for the receiver. Do you see any sign of polishing on the receiver of barrels of any of these guns?Buzz, The Savage guns had the receiver bead-blasted before bluing which gives it the matte finish appearance. Most novice Thompson aficionados usually think the is Parkerizing. The barrels and compensators were not bead-blasted which gives more of a regular blue finish appearance, they weren't polished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firearm Posted January 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) Yes. Both grip mounts have an "S" stamped into them. Also I just noticed that they were lightly marked "Interarms, Alex., VA." on the left side of the receiver. So do you think these were military exports? Maybe those racks marks on the trunions are from the military armory. More pics attached. SN# S18082 1st. SN# S18094 will follow in next post.firearm, I believe TD meant for you to check the actual wood for the S mark, not the metal grip mount. You might also want to remove the rear grip and check for an S mark on the wood. Very early Savage grips are shaped very much like the Colt era Remington made wood. If your rear grip on the guns doesn't have any markings near the hole for the bolt, it is most certainly a leftover Colt grip. If it has the S, it is obviously Savage made. Very nice guns, by the way. It is always a treat to see very early Savage 1928 Model Thompsons. S18094 has a Colt vertical and a Colt pistol grip. S18082 has a Colt vertical grip and a Savage pistol grip. Edited January 17, 2018 by firearm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bug Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 What can you tell us about the fire control parts? Are any of the parts "nickled" when viewed with the lower removed? Thanks, Bob D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reconbob Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 When you guys are talking about parts - barrels and grip mounts - being markedWith an S I assume you mean a round S? So these would be so early in the productionrun that Stevens was not making parts yet? And to follow thru does this mean that allOf the small parts in the trigger frame would also be marked with the round S? I don't know that I have ever seen a TF part marked with a round S, although apivot plate so marked turned up recently. Same with grip mounts. I see square S Stevens and AOC all the time but can't recall seeing round S Savage. Is if safe to assume that at this early time when Savage first started making the gunthat they made and marked ALL of the parts and later parts were contracted to Stevens? As an aside I thought it would be interesting to visit Utica NY to see what was leftOf the giant Savage factory and an initial search of Utica turned up nothing. As with somany other giant enterprises of the era, here, 70+ years later it's all long gone. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firearm Posted January 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 What can you tell us about the fire control parts? Are any of the parts "nickled" when viewed with the lower removed? Thanks, Bob D The selector switches and cocking knob are all knurled. The bolts are nickeled and it looks like the disconnector and the sear lever are as well. However, they have more of a dull finish VS the bolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firearm Posted January 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 When you guys are talking about parts - barrels and grip mounts - being markedWith an S I assume you mean a round S? So these would be so early in the productionrun that Stevens was not making parts yet? And to follow thru does this mean that allOf the small parts in the trigger frame would also be marked with the round S?I don't know that I have ever seen a TF part marked with a round S, although apivot plate so marked turned up recently. Same with grip mounts. I see square SStevens and AOC all the time but can't recall seeing round S Savage.Is if safe to assume that at this early time when Savage first started making the gunthat they made and marked ALL of the parts and later parts were contracted to Stevens?As an aside I thought it would be interesting to visit Utica NY to see what was leftOf the giant Savage factory and an initial search of Utica turned up nothing. As with somany other giant enterprises of the era, here, 70+ years later it's all long gone. Bob The barrel marking has a round "S". Same for the grip frame. The internals (without taking them all out) appear to unmarked. When I get a little more time I will tear it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 reconbob,A review of the Auto-Ordnance Corporation and Savage Arms contracts coupled with the British contracts for Thompson guns indicates that AOC or Savage were not certain their would be any additional contracts for Thompson guns after the first contract for 10,000 guns was completed. I believe Savage Arms manufactured all the parts for the first contract guns (other than the Lyman rear sights and compensators). There was no need for a subcontractor(s) until Savage Arms perfected the manufacturing process and future contracts were executed. As it turned out, the British military became AOC's best customer in 1940/1941 - up to the passage of the Lend-Lease Act. For years pundits have thought the "bright" or unfinished internal parts found in early Savage Thompson frames were Colt's parts. This certainly made sense because from the top looking down in the frame, some parts mirrored what you would find in a Colt's Thompson gun. Stories were written that stated Savage Arms used left over Colt's parts in the production of the early Savage Thompsons. While this statement is probably true to some extent, no author has ever provided any proof this happened other than anecdotal evidence when a Colt part or two were found in a Savage Thompson gun. I have always doubted the abundance of spare Colt's manufactured parts at AOC during this time period because of AOC's very poor financial condition until taken over by Russell Maguire in July 1939. I have always thought any major use of Colt's manufactured parts would most likely have occurred during the manufacture of the first 1,000 guns. Given only a few of these guns with 15,000 and very early 16,000 serial numbers exist today, there is really no way to know if this happened. I would guess any bright parts found in the frames of firearm's several 18,000 serial number range Thompson are "S" or Savage Arms marked. Actually, I would expect all the internal parts to be marked with the round "S" marking regardless of color. But every Thompson is a learning experience! All good stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 The Savage factory in Utica, New York manufactured both of these Savage Commercial Thompsons in June or July 1940. This is a great pair of early Savage Commercial Thompsons with what appears to be impeccable provenance. Did you obtain any paperwork from the Sheriff's Department during the sale? If not, I suggest a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. Given small number of owners, it should be a quick search for BATF. S marked barrels without an index line on the barrel collar indicates original barrels (to me). Showcasing the actual color in photographs can be difficult. I would guess the compensator is a very bright blue, the barrel a blue color and the receiver a dark or flat blue, perhaps somewhat blackish. Congratulations. These are quite a pair. I really like what I see. Please post more pictures : TD, from what I have seen so far on genuine savage commercials, the barrels are not what I would call "blue" I think they're just a little smoother and closer to blue than the receiver because the lathe turning of the barrel results in a smoother finish than the milling operation used for the receiver. Do you see any sign of polishing on the receiver of barrels of any of these guns?Buzz, The Savage guns had the receiver bead-blasted before bluing which gives it the matte finish appearance. Most novice Thompson aficionados usually think the is Parkerizing. The barrels and compensators were not bead-blasted which gives more of a regular blue finish appearance, they weren't polished. The savage commercials that I have seen in the 17000-18000 range all have a flat dulite barrels, but it's slightly higher sheen than the receiver. I'm assuming that difference is because of some difference in the fabrication, as opposed to some deliberate act. You see this on other guns as well, the surface finish of a barrel, bolt, receiver, etc. will all be slightly different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) What can you tell us about the fire control parts? Are any of the parts "nickled" when viewed with the lower removed? Thanks, Bob D The selector switches and cocking knob are all knurled. The bolts are nickeled and it looks like the disconnector and the sear lever are as well. However, they have more of a dull finish VS the bolt. Back in the 1920s and 1930s, some gun parts were made with "nickel steel", a steel with extremely high nickel and chrome content, similar to stainless steel. These bright Thompson parts are nickel steel, not nickel plated. Nickel plating is like bluing, it shows wear pretty quickly, so if these parts were plated, it would be obvious. Edited January 17, 2018 by buzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 The Savage factory in Utica, New York manufactured both of these Savage Commercial Thompsons in June or July 1940. This is a great pair of early Savage Commercial Thompsons with what appears to be impeccable provenance. Did you obtain any paperwork from the Sheriff's Department during the sale? If not, I suggest a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. Given small number of owners, it should be a quick search for BATF. S marked barrels without an index line on the barrel collar indicates original barrels (to me). Showcasing the actual color in photographs can be difficult. I would guess the compensator is a very bright blue, the barrel a blue color and the receiver a dark or flat blue, perhaps somewhat blackish. Congratulations. These are quite a pair. I really like what I see. Please post more pictures : TD, from what I have seen so far on genuine savage commercials, the barrels are not what I would call "blue" I think they're just a little smoother and closer to blue than the receiver because the lathe turning of the barrel results in a smoother finish than the milling operation used for the receiver. Do you see any sign of polishing on the receiver of barrels of any of these guns?Buzz, The Savage guns had the receiver bead-blasted before bluing which gives it the matte finish appearance. Most novice Thompson aficionados usually think the is Parkerizing. The barrels and compensators were not bead-blasted which gives more of a regular blue finish appearance, they weren't polished. The savage commercials that I have seen in the 17000-18000 range all have a flat dulite barrels, but it's slightly higher sheen than the receiver. I'm assuming that difference is because of some difference in the fabrication, as opposed to some deliberate act. You see this on other guns as well, the surface finish of a barrel, bolt, receiver, etc. will all be slightly different.Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 my grip mount resting bar is 5 marked....i have searched for a S marked one for 2 years and have yet to see 1 for sale....my barrel was swapped out, so i assume my grip bar was at the same time.....a S marked bar must be a very rare thing..... also looking for a S marked extractor...my gun has a correct one, but just for spare parts id like one.....again--looked for 2 years and have never seen 1 for sale curious after the 1st 10,000 S1928's if they changed to Stevens on these 2 parts..... and in case anyone has either as a spare part to sell im a buyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firearm Posted January 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Here are a couple of pics of the internals on S-18082. The upper and lower slide together like they were made from glass. So very smooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adg105200 Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Nice pictures! Great collection so far! Keep em coming. What else do you have tucked away in your vault haha. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firearm Posted January 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 So much that it is really overwhelming. I starting thinking about dusting off a lot of this stuff about 6 or 8 months ago. I am starting to get it in gear. The political climate in the country is going to crap. Just thinking that some politician could reduce your collection to scrap iron with the stroke of a pen is bothersome to say the least. I am just going to cherry pick what I want to keep. Give my kids a few things and the rest is going out the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RChapman Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 So much that it is really overwhelming. I starting thinking about dusting off a lot of this stuff about 6 or 8 months ago. I am starting to get it in gear. The political climate in the country is going to crap. Just thinking that some politician could reduce your collection to scrap iron with the stroke of a pen is bothersome to say the least. I am just going to cherry pick what I want to keep. Give my kids a few things and the rest is going out the door. shocking photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1957 Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Photo of the year!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) so ive tried to add up your thompson collection from both the pic just shown and also the pic you had with your screen name...i count approx 42 in each so you own 42-84+ thompsons......multimillionaire.....i hope you take nice vacations and drive a nice car? the amazing thing would be to add up what you paid and what they are now worth..with all the accessories....your return on investment ill bet is insane by any standard...im sure you beat the stock market many times over.... ive seen similar pictures of collections before...some larger, but none as focused as yours.......i just hope your enjoying life beyond your Thompson collection... and i hope its 84! Thompsons, not just 42 Edited January 17, 2018 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adg105200 Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Photo of the year!!+1 Wow! And most people are happy and lucky to own one or two Thompsons! Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firearm Posted January 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Honestly I don't know how many I have. I would have to stop and count them. I live very frugally and very modestly. Vacation? What's that? I work all the time and drive a truck. As you get older, you will find that money is nice, but it not everything by a long shot. I will assure you my intention on this board is not to try and impress anyone. That is not my goal. I have had this stuff for many years now, locked away in a vault where no one could see or touch it. I got to thinking what a shame that was. Lots of people out there that would like the knowledge of how things were made back in the day. What is correct and what is not correct. I was thinking that some of you guys might like to see some of the more rare Thompson items. That is what my post are about. Nothing else. That said. I will assure you that I have learned a ton just by posting on this forum. I just thought I knew a lot. After reading the responses by some of you guys, I am starting to feel like a dumb ass. Totally blown away by some of you RKI's. Probably not too many out here that really realize how lucky they are to have access to the knowledge available on this board. Some pretty smart guys here and I am most appreciative to have access to that knowledge. Just because you have a lot of something, doesn't mean you know a lot about it. I am getting smarter by the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 you have an impressive collection and im sure many including me have wide eyes looking at your racks of thompsons....i just thought id bring up the obvious...glad your here and thanks for sharing your picture id recommend selling and travel the world.....your a very wealthy man...pass the best ones down to your kids!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Firearm...you make a good point about your impressive collection being worth nothing with pen stroke. That would keep me awake at nite. Unlikely that will happen but who knows. How you found and bought all of them would make a good book. I know exactly how many Thompsons i have...exactly one M1A1 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOGLEG Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Dad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 If I had several million dollars worth of NFA MGs, I might want to diversify that investment a little. But under normal circumstances, with a typical collection, I'm not worried about it. You see people going to the car dealer and driving away in $45,000 SUVs, you don't see them laying awake thinking about the $30,000+ in guaranteed depreciation. Not possible depreciation, but guaranteed depreciation. I'm not going to worry about something that might happen someday. The more expensive these guns get, the less likely they are to be banned anyway. Why spend the political capital to ban a handful of $30,000 guns owned by some rich guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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