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Is this a Colt Buttstock?


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#1 GARANDNUT

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Posted 21 June 2019 - 08:44 AM

It has no anchor.  The fit of the butt plate and slide are tight and perfect.  The wood has clearly been sanded but inside the stock under the butt plate is clearly old.  The fiber washer is in the hole for the oiler.  The butt plate and slide are the correct carbona blue.  The rest of the 21 is all cot and original.  The only marking on the stock and plate is the no 33. The stock is not like the WWII bridgeport and savage stocks I have.  So what is it? SN on the gun is 7592.

 

 

Thanks

 

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Edited by GARANDNUT, 21 June 2019 - 08:58 AM.

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#2 TD.

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Posted 21 June 2019 - 09:25 AM

GARANDNUT,

"It has no anchor" and "sanded" is all you need to know regarding value. Even if this butt stock were Colt's, it has been greatly devalued by those two deficiencies. From a buyers perspective, I would treat it as a non-Colt's butt stock and value the Thompson accordingly.

 

The butt plate is clearly not Colt's because there is no rounded trap door screw visible from the front or face and the inside appears to lack the most commonly found "R" marking - all detailed in my new book, An Amateur's Guide for the Colt's Thompson Submachine Gun. In addition, the hash or diamond marks on the inside of the butt plate at the top in the bend are commonly found on GI butt plates. I have never seen a two digit assembly number on a Colt's or Savage Thompson. I have only seen a few 3 digit assembly numbers. That said, the font or style  of the numerals "33" does not appear to me like I have seen in known original Colt guns. The slide assembly looks good from the top. Inspect it closely when removed for manufacturer markings or evidence of removal of markings.

 

All of this leads me to believe the butt stock is not original Colt's (or Remington). Prospective buyers armed with my new book should immediately spot this butt stock as being suspect. And know to inspect the rest of the Thompson very carefully for other potential deficiencies.   

 

Remember, if you are unsure and having to swallow a story about something that appears not correct on a very expensive Colt's, this same problem will present itself again when the Colt's is later sold.  


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#3 gijive

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Posted 21 June 2019 - 09:35 AM

Hi,

 

The slide latch attachment is from a Colt  gun.  The rest appears to be a WWII production stock and butt plate that someone stamped with the number 33.  The reason I say the butt plate appears to an early WWII part is because the the trapdoor spring retention screw is ground flush with the outside of the butt plate.  In addition, a Remington/Colt butt stock with that low of a production number would  have the Remington "R" stamped in three places on the inside of the butt plate.  The right side of the inside plate, the side of the trapdoor hinge boss and the end piece of the trap door itself.  The font stamped on the wood (33) does not appear to be the style font seen on most Colt butt stocks.

 

The serrated area above the number 33 on the butt plate where the tang was bent also does not appear on Colt/Remington butt plates.

 

See picture:

 

Attached File  33 butt plate.jpg   189.91K   27 downloads

 

I see I was typing at the same time as TD.  Sorry for the redundant information.


Edited by gijive, 21 June 2019 - 09:37 AM.

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#4 GARANDNUT

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Posted 21 June 2019 - 09:57 AM

Hi,

 

The slide latch attachment is from a Colt  gun.  The rest appears to be a WWII production stock and butt plate that someone stamped with the number 33.  The reason I say the butt plate appears to an early WWII part is because the the trapdoor spring retention screw is ground flush with the outside of the butt plate.  In addition, a Remington/Colt butt stock with that low of a production number would  have the Remington "R" stamped in three places on the inside of the butt plate.  The right side of the inside plate, the side of the trapdoor hinge boss and the end piece of the trap door itself.  The font stamped on the wood (33) does not appear to be the style font seen on most Colt butt stocks.

 

The serrated area above the number 33 on the butt plate where the tang was bent also does not appear on Colt/Remington butt plates.

 

See picture:

 

attachicon.gif 33 butt plate.jpg

 

I see I was typing at the same time as TD.  Sorry for the redundant information.

This is not an advertised gun it belongs to me and I have owned if for 10 years.  I am confused by the finish on the buttplate because it is carbona which no one does any more(except two restorers that I know of) and matches the rest of the weapons.  Its internals are all correct colt and unmarked with the nickel plating where it should be.  The underside of the slid is also unmarked and as you can see correct and fits perfectly as does the rest of the furniture.  The pistol grip is unmarked.  If its a fake stock its old.  So my follow up questions are, is the rest of the furniture colt?  Did Savage use carbona blue?  It would be very expensive to go finish a butt plate like this just to pass it off as colt. This 21 at one time belonged to board member colt21a here is the link.  

 

http://www.machinegu...showtopic=11149


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#5 GARANDNUT

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Posted 21 June 2019 - 10:10 AM

GARANDNUT,

"It has no anchor" and "sanded" is all you need to know regarding value. Even if this butt stock were Colt's, it has been greatly devalued by those two deficiencies. From a buyers perspective, I would treat it as a non-Colt's butt stock and value the Thompson accordingly.

 

The butt plate is clearly not Colt's because there is no rounded trap door screw visible from the front or face and the inside appears to lack the most commonly found "R" marking - all detailed in my new book, An Amateur's Guide for the Colt's Thompson Submachine Gun. In addition, the hash or diamond marks on the inside of the butt plate at the top in the bend are commonly found on GI butt plates. I have never seen a two digit assembly number on a Colt's or Savage Thompson. I have only seen a few 3 digit assembly numbers. That said, the font or style  of the numerals "33" does not appear to me like I have seen in known original Colt guns. The slide assembly looks good from the top. Inspect it closely when removed for manufacturer markings or evidence of removal of markings.

 

All of this leads me to believe the butt stock is not original Colt's (or Remington). Prospective buyers armed with my new book should immediately spot this butt stock as being suspect. And know to inspect the rest of the Thompson very carefully for other potential deficiencies.   

 

Remember, if you are unsure and having to swallow a story about something that appears not correct on a very expensive Colt's, this same problem will present itself again when the Colt's is later sold.  

Underside of the slide has no markings with no marks like the mark was ground off or otherwise messed with.  Here is a pick of the slide:

 

IMG_2145.jpg

 

Thanks again for the help.


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#6 colt21a

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Posted 21 June 2019 - 01:33 PM

Pretty interesting read and since that gun was sold over 28 years ago who knows what has happened to it,A few guns that i have owned over the decades have turned up out of well over a 100 and some are now restored or added or taken off wood.Not too many bogus guns out there came from Pd's i guess that went from pd to first owner to myself.And the two owners since have past including the sheriff from the dept it came from'

 

I can imagine Rogers guns looked at today.when there was a table of butt/stocks and he asked which one to which gun.

Only way to be sure today get it from the 120 year old owner today who bought it originally.#7519 said at one time a issue yet it went from dept to me via dealer.I will gladly give a  full refund today to whoever bought it over 28 years ago. The price was around $7,000.00.

 

I would contact who you bought it from ten years ago. they seemed like they ripped you off on Wood.{But probably not.} When i bought that gun from Dennis, he had twenty Colts in a few safes, And many had the wood off them.for storage. no one would know decades ago what stock went on it.It is good to have a 2009 post brought up.

 

Not much going on in 2019 so hashing out old deals is good.

what was that story about cloth spare parts kits again.

Or #894 being in the n.r.a. museum display, made up replica, 

 

With older age i have forgotten more then what some here even think they know.

SAD decades ago it was about the history, who shot it and owned it, What story can it tell. Now some are so freaking bored. they open up a twenty round mag And ask is this spring real. Or did my Kit get a Gordons Ejector from 1975.

 

What will the LAST THOMPSON GUY DO?

blow out his brains because 40 years later he found out his WW2 U.S.M.C pouch was made in WW1 and was  bogus.

 

Lets move on to Firing pins and the famous C stamp on Colt Bolts.And the blue rotor versus Nickle in a drum.

 

Colt21a 

 

RON

or was it 21ac ole Navy


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#7 GARANDNUT

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Posted 21 June 2019 - 02:34 PM

Pretty interesting read and since that gun was sold over 28 years ago who knows what has happened to it,A few guns that i have owned over the decades have turned up out of well over a 100 and some are now restored or added or taken off wood.Not too many bogus guns out there came from Pd's i guess that went from pd to first owner to myself.And the two owners since have past including the sheriff from the dept it came from'

 

I can imagine Rogers guns looked at today.when there was a table of butt/stocks and he asked which one to which gun.

Only way to be sure today get it from the 120 year old owner today who bought it originally.#7519 said at one time a issue yet it went from dept to me via dealer.I will gladly give a  full refund today to whoever bought it over 28 years ago. The price was around $7,000.00.

 

I would contact who you bought it from ten years ago. they seemed like they ripped you off on Wood.{But probably not.} When i bought that gun from Dennis, he had twenty Colts in a few safes, And many had the wood off them.for storage. no one would know decades ago what stock went on it.It is good to have a 2009 post brought up.

 

Not much going on in 2019 so hashing out old deals is good.

what was that story about cloth spare parts kits again.

Or #894 being in the n.r.a. museum display, made up replica, 

 

With older age i have forgotten more then what some here even think they know.

SAD decades ago it was about the history, who shot it and owned it, What story can it tell. Now some are so freaking bored. they open up a twenty round mag And ask is this spring real. Or did my Kit get a Gordons Ejector from 1975.

 

What will the LAST THOMPSON GUY DO?

blow out his brains because 40 years later he found out his WW2 U.S.M.C pouch was made in WW1 and was  bogus.

 

Lets move on to Firing pins and the famous C stamp on Colt Bolts.And the blue rotor versus Nickle in a drum.

 

Colt21a 

 

RON

or was it 21ac ole Navy

Thanks for posting. I remember your endorsement of this gun when I was looking at it and appreciate it to this day.  Even if the buttstock is wrong in some way everything you said about the gun 10 years ago was dead on. It has not been refinished, original internals, locks up with no slop, pivot plate looks like it was never removed ect.  I have not seen a better 21 before or since in overall condition.  So thanks again.  


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#8 colt21a

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Posted 21 June 2019 - 03:16 PM

The stock reminds me of one i bought off guy in pa.  MASSACHUSETTS NATIONAL GUARD GUN.And offered it to Chuck here on the forum for around $7500 at the time.since he was from there.And he passed and i sold a pair to Mike in Texas, Nick remembers the guy since he said he sold Mikes guns.This is from my foggy memory i rarely wrote anything down.

 

That was a super nice 1921a and that was the reason i bought it from Dennis along with over 15 others.his family still has the M.G.M. GUN.I sold him and the matching C drum and L drum number #1504...

 

Yeah no matter how many can't stand my uninformative posts. they won't ever come close to the fun i had with all of it.

Well yeah Maybe if they played in the sandbox with Tonka trucks.

 

And took apart A M-60 at 18,

Glad you have the gun.the buttstock. Another Colt One Step Beyond. A.F. should like that one.RON 


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