Recent buying experience from Spiwak

[huggytree]

ive bought many guns and parts in the full auto market...most experiences have been great, some decent, few poor....a recent purchase from Spiwak has not gone so well. Enough so that i want to share it with you as to spread knowledge

gun is still on his website for you to look at. Its a Stemple/BRP STG 76 (or a Stemple 45 as he calls it)..$8,550 BRAND NEW

Gun arrived rusty(tube and shroud),non functional, stock weathered, barrel hacked up (visible through shroud) and barrel filthy(almost looked like fur inside the barrel). Mr. Spiwak says gun was shipped clean and that rust occurred during shipping. I wiped the rust with gun oil and while some came off, most didnt. I could feel it with my fingernail. This was not new rust.

Mr. Spiwak offered a refinish (Cerakote which i found unacceptable). He also offered to swap it for another twin gun he had (which i originally accepted, but later declined due to the 4 month wait and not knowing what id be getting on the 2nd gun). I accepted this gun and hoped Mr. Spiwak would pay to repair/refinish the gun. Mr. Spiwak had agreed to $150 to refinish the tube, but we had not discussed the rest of the guns refinish or the repair. I did not think this would be very much and it could be resolved.

Gun went to BRP. It was discovered it was missing a $5 part that can only come out from taking the trigger group apart(this means the gun never fired for Mr. Spiwak--HE SOLD A GUN HE NEVER TEST FIRED OR EVEN FUNCTION CHECKED). The rails screws went into the tube and were permanently locktited on. after drilling them out BRP discovered the rail was glued to the tube requiring extra work. Mr. Spiwak DID NOT CALL BRP ONCE TO DISCUSS WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH THE GUN. He was leaving it all to me to handle. I sent the invoice to Mr. Spiwak for $325 and asked him to please call BRP and pay it. Even though the barrel and stock were also not ''brand new'' i decided to let those 2 items go. The replacement barrel cost me $185 and i will refinish the stock myself.

in the end Mr. Spiwak agreed to pay me the $150 we discussed and would not even pay the $5 for the repair part. When his check arrived it was for $155.

These pics are after i oiled the gun, so the rust isnt as bad as it was when i first saw the gun. Rust is brown, not bright orange. i have more pics, but this gives you an idea...ive also got a video of it not functioning(bolt locked up and safety/selector floating around)

notice the hack on the barrel seen through the shroud--this is clearly visible through most of the shroud holes

here's 2 pics of the barrels--the hacked up one is what came on my gun, the new one is the replacement i paid $185 out of pocket for

my invoice for the repairs- notice how nice BRP is by lowering their price for the removal of the rail, $0 for chasing out the threads, $0 for testfiring the gun, $0 for the repair

Read this over very carefuly..this was sent for me to sign off on after i paid my money...it calls the gun a collector and does not guarantee function- open admitting the gun is not function tested...think about what this legal document means for your purchase.

Here's (2) consecutive emails from me and then him...notice how my ''collector gun'' is now NOT called a ''collector''...ask yourself why he does this switch?

Also notice how he grades the gun " the gun looked new to me'' no inspection to determine this...is this how you grade and advertise a gun? BRAND NEW was in his title for this sale

"" the rail was aluminum and had to be removed for the refinish...they are putting the rail back on the gun...the rail was not just put on the gun..it was glued onto the metal...you did give me a choice of another gun..true..after my form 4 was sent in already(it would have caused further issues and problems).....the refinish i thought we agreed that BRP was to do last we spoke..i know you said YES, then No then Yes to this on the 3 phone calls we had.

in the $325 shipping is not included...so that can run $150 w/ insurance...so id be out $325...($475 minus your $150 offer)....your gun said BRAND NEW in the title...i got a rusted gun that did not function and a barrel im being nice to accept as is....

your refinish was a painted finish(not a park finish)...and i will add that neither is an original finish for the gun..its a black oxide...ive got a brand new gun with a refinish job that will always be devalued for being refinished now.....

ive been the one handling this stuff...not you...you should have taken over and asked for the gun back and you should have had it repaired and reparked....im the one who called brp and made it easy for you....im the one who did 5 emails to get shipping done...and now im going to lose $325 on a gun that was advertised as BRAND NEW...that was rusted and non functional...

please reconsider...i dont think your being fair and i know BRP has been very fair about this stuff also......not asking for the world, just to get the gun that matches the description i bought from you....

""""""

""""I am sending you the attachment that I sent to you when you made your purchase. It says that you cannot have work done on your own and expect me to pay for it. You gave me a refinishing price of $150 and I said ok. If you had told me $270 I would not have approved it. There is very little steel area on your gun and you were charged a ridiculous price for the work. I could have done the same black finish. I have the other gun here and the finish is nothing special. You didn’t buy a collector gun so the refinish has no effect on the value. I bought the two guns as being new and they looked new to me. It is unfortunate that it was not as I advertised, but these things do happen and I offered to take it back.

If BRP has not yet returned the gun, get the length, width and height of the shipping box and approximate weight. I can send them a prepaid Fedex shipping label. I have my own insurance that will cover it.

I agreed to pay the $150 refinishing cost and not $270. You can’t change a price and expect me to go along with""""

I accept my decision to keep the gun

I accept my decision to send it to BRP (would you have it sent anywhere else?)

I know there are grey area's all over this and i also accept that.

I run a business....occasionally issues/problems come up. if a major issue on a $8,550 job came up I would immediately spring into action and tell the customer to sit back and i will handle it. I repair it using the best repair person (not the lowest price), i send the customer emails/phone calls letting them know the progress of the repair. My goal is to turn than negative into a positive. Problems go away when you do this. I accepted a gun that was incorrectly rated as Brand new. Including a replacement barrel $500 would have made this all go away and I would be happy enough to let it go. The level of service and the quality i just find shocking. I want to educate as many people to this as possible. Ive got a beautiful gun thanks to Brian at BRP.

There are more details i could share, more pics, a video, more emails, phone conversations.....i didnt want to write a book (even though i sort of just did)....i tried to stick to the facts that cant be disputed..

the 2 things i want to come out of this are

#1 the way Mr. Spiwak rates the condition of his guns

#2 how its handled when there is an issue

[shadycon]

Thank you for this information. I agree that is no way to run a business. Note; I used to own a small construction business [ now retired ] and I always went the extra mile for customers. The best advertising in the world is a happy client!

[StooperZero]

that's pretty ugly .

[huggytree]

Thank you for this information. I agree that is no way to run a business. Note; I used to own a small construction business [ now retired ] and I always went the extra mile for customers. The best advertising in the world is a happy client!

i own a plumbing business.....5 stars is my goal (and its what i have)....when there is an issue i handle it like my business depends upon it because it does...every bad review costs you money...ive heard endless stories about some dealers on PM's....people typically just sit back and take it while others of us continue to get hurt by bad business practices...

 

here's a pic of the gun right now...notice the cetme stock is all worn out/low on finish

 

look at the gun on his website...does the stock match his pics?

https://www.davidspiwak.com/gun/stemple-76-9mm-brand-new/

 

ask yourself why the color and condition of the stock look different....my pic is how it really looks....ill refinish it and it will be better than new....its just another thing i have to do to make the gun right

Edited September 15, 2017 by huggytree

[geefal]

Meh, par for the course (and have tried to tell people about him, but get shot down about what a "great dealer" he is)

 

Purchased an MP40 that between the time the pictures were taken and gun was received the following happened

 

Cocking handle was either removed or broke off

 

rear sight was broken

 

front muzzle nut had been removed and then Forcefully reinstalled cross threaded requiring me to rethread the front and source new muzzle nut

 

original sling as sold with it was not included

 

Upon complaint, was sent a aftermarket cocking handle knob (that was it, nothing else, sourced an original and installed it myself) which was promptly trash canned and no other reply

 

will never never do business with him again

Edited September 15, 2017 by geefal

[michaelkih]

Sad to hear. I have bought many machine guns from him for years, all with good luck. My 34 and 42 both had issues and he just kept paying the repair bills at the repair place of my choice as they added up and up, until they were both fixed perfectly. I'm assuming things have changed since then. Very sorry to see this, and thanks for posting, as he has been my favorite personal MG dealer for years.

Edited September 16, 2017 by michaelkih

[JJX]

Thank you for the detailed information. Helps me know where NOT to shop.

[huggytree]

shot the gun tonight w/ my son...it functioned flawless...its a great gun...other than needing a refinish to the wood it looks like a brand new gun now!.

 

beyond the condition----selling machine guns that have not been test fired or even cycled when he has them in his possession is just unacceptable to me...its like not caring what your selling...it would not be accepted anywhere else....but in the FA world many just complain behind the scenes and he keeps selling them...

 

michaelkih

at no time did i ever get an impression that he was going to make it right...i dont think he ever even said ''im sorry''...he is very short with words when he talks..you ask him something and get a 1-3 word answer...its hard to communicate with someone who is on guard with everything he says...the proof is his offer of $150 to pay for the refinish and he wasnt even going to pay $5 for the part!!!...i had to ask for it and he never responded to that email...$155 just showed up...

 

did he have that policy when you purchased that says he doesnt test fire or guarantee function? or is that new?

[ron_brock]

I think your reading into the letter too much. Looks like a boiler plate liability release that indicates he is selling collector items not function tested or guaranteed to be safe to shoot and the email indicated that it's an entry level NFA gun, not a high grade collector gun. Likely sent with each sale.

 

I guess it's worth saying again that unless the person knows the seller, any transaction is worth a quick trip to personally inspect the gun when this amount of cash is being laid out.

 

I agree that the company should make it right provided the buyer has a legitimate claim. I recently went through this with a builder. He cheaped out on pouring a slab and we went toe to toe over it. He had no desire to make it right as it "looked good". Goes to show contracts need to be detailed and define the acceptance criteria. These guys get bad feedback from me and I talk them down to everyone who asks about my barn. Happy customers are great advertising.

 

Glad to hear your happy with the gun in the end.

 

Ron

Edited September 15, 2017 by ron_brock

[huggytree]

name another type business that could send out that letter and still make a sale?

[ron_brock]

name another type business that could send out that letter and still make a sale?

Guns are sold all the time on gunbroker with claims like that also some gun shops have similar claims on used guns. Likely his lawyer drafted that to protect him. Whether or not it holds any water would be for the legal system to decide.

 

Was this sent prior to, or after the sale was already made?

Ron

Edited September 15, 2017 by ron_brock

[huggytree]

this was sent after the gun was paid for

 

i signed it......thinking its his backup plan and not how he actually does business....not in a million years would i ever think a gun in anyone's possession would not at a minimum be function tested.....i actually would expect them to run a mag......if he had pull the bolt back a time or 2

the bolt would have jammed for him...the safety/selector is just flopping in the breeze....just touch the gun and you could tell it was not correct....just looking for the minimum effort here

 

ive bought countless guns, parts, mags, parts kits, etc.....ive had things arrive in worse condition than advertised...but this experience is waaay beyond that i feel.. its up to each person to decide for themselves if this practice is acceptable to them before they purchase...ive exposed the practice

Edited September 16, 2017 by huggytree

[michaelkih]

huggytree, no he has never made me sign a letter like that, and I've bought 6 machine guns from him and 4 SBRs over many years. Must be something new. He has always told me that he does not test fire guns though. Thanks for the feedback. Feedback is always good from all angles and sides and as much as possible in any business. I have heard of another bad experience with him from another member here as well.

 

I may just be really lucky, but he has really hooked me up a couple times, and always made things right, so I'm having him help me find one more machine gun that I want, and he will still get my business with that purchase if/when he finds the gun I want, but again, your feedback is very good to hear and much appreciated in a hobby that continues to get more and more expensive. It gives us all things to mention, be aware of, and watch out for.

Edited September 16, 2017 by michaelkih

[michaelkih]

Wow, that's terrible.

 

Meh, par for the course (and have tried to tell people about him, but get shot down about what a "great dealer" he is)

 

Purchased an MP40 that between the time the pictures were taken and gun was received the following happened

 

Cocking handle was either removed or broke off

 

rear sight was broken

 

front muzzle nut had been removed and then Forcefully reinstalled cross threaded requiring me to rethread the front and source new muzzle nut

 

original sling as sold with it was not included

 

Upon complaint, was sent a aftermarket cocking handle knob (that was it, nothing else, sourced an original and installed it myself) which was promptly trash canned and no other reply

 

will never never do business with him again

[Black River Militaria CII]

If it makes you feel any better, huggytree, I work for a number of dealers who send me MGs in their inventory to inspect, test and repair as needed because they do not have the experience to do it themselves. This is good business practice and makes sense to me as obviously it helps the dealer to provide his customer's with MGs that have had competent oversight. There are several "large" dealers who have absolutely no capability to assess or test their inventory MGs, don't have it done and really don't give a tinker's damn about the condition of their offerings. I have had potential buyers ask me to talk to these dealers about specific MGs that are of interest to them, and try to get more details about actual condition, alterations, accessories, and other issues and the dealer's tell me it is not my business and that the buyer should call them. Of course, the buyer has been told a lot of BS since the dealers do not know anything about the guns so just make reassuring noises and hope that the buyer is tantalized enough to buy the gun without further interruption.

I do more of this than I care to, and to the point where I tell the dealer that his ignorance of answers and indifference to the questions from a potential customer whom I have undertaken to help is sufficient reason for me to tell the customer to look elsewhere.

There are so many new players in the MG game who can not recognize an MG other than an Uzi, M16 or Thompson but insist on acting like they know everything there is to know because they are so afraid of appearing inexperienced. The world of MGs is endlessly complex and varied and actual real knowledge and understanding of them in any broad sense requires many, many years of access and handling. There are no shortcuts.....

Sorry you got burned.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Black River Militaria CII

[Got Uzi]

I've posted about my dealing with said dealer and I know where I stand. He has had a couple guns that I would have liked to have had, but the voice in my head said "its not worth the headache"

 

My dad bought a MKII STEN off a dealer at the Creek back in April. Dealer said the gun ran great and it was a turn key item. Fast forward to couple weeks ago......dealer here gets the gun and we go to test it. First mag the gun runs away.....ok possibly the ammunition. Second mag of different ammunition.....same thing. Try it a third time with again a different ammunition and get the same result. At this point it is known that the gun is not "turn key" but instead something is wrong. I pull the gun apart to find a worn out sear. NO big deal as I had spare parts, but it is the idea. The dealer would have known the gun wasn't functioning properly as there is NO WAY it would have worked the last time he shot it. This did not happen over night. Gotta watch yourself all the time.

[johnsonlmg41]

In all my years of doing this I don't know of any dealer that test fires incoming used guns on a regular basis. I know some that take stuff out to shoot that is in inventory, but it's not a regular ordeal. MG's that "don't work" might not work or it may be the new owner doesn't know how to work it? Some guns are somewhat complicated even though they appear simple. I've had guys limp wrist stuff, use poor mounts, and many other issues. Of the stacks of MG's I've had here I can think of only a couple that came in clean and by clean I mean essentially the barrel was clean, nothing else. Also of note, you might be assuming that dealers have the skills and ability to tear down a variety of guns and that would be a false assumption by anyone.

I'm a bit of a freak about cleaning stuff and dismantling stuff when it comes in the door. I think 10-20% come in not functioning correctly or at all, many others are marginal. Lately I've bought a lot at auction and you get nothing but a gun and the form, that is all you are guaranteed since like most dealers, their function is to sell, not test fire, clean, or repair. This is used junk after all and there really are no warranty's. Dealers post pictures hopefully so you can see any issues since you are sort of buying sight unseen and as we know the money is in the paper, not so much the gun. I've probably bought 40-60 guns over the years on a description, with no pictures.

 

I see what you mean by the finish issues in your pictures but it's somewhat minor IMO since it's parked. No offense, but in the big picture that is about the ugliest MG I've seen in a long time!

[Sandman1957]

This is becoming a trend...

[huggytree]

I see what you mean by the finish issues in your pictures but it's somewhat minor IMO since it's parked. No offense, but in the big picture that is about the ugliest MG I've seen in a long time!

i actually sought out this gun for a while.....ive wanted a BRP and prefer the older ones....i know its a pieced together style gun from multiple parts kits....but i like its looks...maybe im the only one....like a cetme collided with a Suomi.....after shooting it tonight all i can say is its the best shooting gun ive shot in a while...the only gun that i like more is a Sterling...its smooth, easy to control, fast rate of fire (which typically makes it impossible to control) and the trigger is great....im very happy with my purchase in the end....had it been correct from day 1 id be extremely happy....

 

dont knock the gun until you have tried one....very simple design

 

video of my son shooting it tonight...dont mess w/ my 13 year old

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owrtzTSaw-Y

 

target afterwards

[StooperZero]

shoots better than most grown men i know.

[huggytree]

in response to black river---ive been into guns for 27 years....i took a 10+ year break, but now im full force into it....ive only been into FA for 1.5 years now....i am moving forward into doing my own trigger jobs, swapping out internals to improve guns (M16, Cetme and just this week a new sear on a Ruger 22/45)....its not my job, but i like to figure things out.....now if i was a gun dealer...that was my only job....id know everything....there really arent that many types of transferrables out there...sure you will find a few obscure ones, but for the most part there's what? 20 main machine guns (approx)....whats so hard about looking down a barrel, opening up a gun, charging it and dry firing it....with this BRP i knew nothing about how it worked....yet in 10 mins at the gun shop i was able to dissemble and see why it was jamming...i did not know what part was missing, but i knew it was missing....1 phone call to BRP (5 minutes) and i had it all figured out....why cant a dealer do that?....i dont need him to know every detail of a thompson, but he should know if it functions by working the action a couple of times....i dont expect him to be a geek on every gun....but general knowledge is lacking here....or what i suspect---he doesnt care....ive in business now for 11 years....i get tired of customers time to time too...people irritate me sometimes...whereas when i first went into business i was excited every time the phone rang.....so maybe he has been in business for too long....look at his response to my email...i wasnt asking for anything much...i ate the cost of a new barrel and didnt even ask for it....i dont feel $325 is anything to pay to make up for this error....yet to him it is......to not even offer to pay for the $5 part and me having to ask for it....its just not correct....

[huggytree]

shoots better than most grown men i know.

he is amazing for 13 isnt he....notice the smile when he is done.......give him a AR or full auto and he has the stance and bangs away....he still struggles with handguns, but i did too when i first started...for me it was age 21...so he has a good start on me.....he started on a trap team this year...he moved out of his age group immediately, but then got depressed he wasnt #1 anymore and his shooting suffered......he wants my guns someday...thats for sure....very proud parent here.....my next in line daughter has become equally impressive for age 11--she has just started with full auto on a very limited basis...strength is her main issue being a girl age 11...youngest age 9 gave up shooting after banging her head on the kick of a .45 (she put her face too close to the gun)..left a mark on her forehead....she has just got back into trying after a 1 year break......

[StooperZero]

first big gun i shot was a .357 blackhawk.

 

First MG was an M60 and I compared everything to that.

[dalbert]

In all my years of doing this I don't know of any dealer that test fires incoming used guns on a regular basis. I know some that take stuff out to shoot that is in inventory, but it's not a regular ordeal.

 

Agree completely. It's not a realistic expectation for a dealer to test fire all incoming MG's. Also, it's certainly not expected on higher end, collector MG's. I know a dealer who sends many of his guns out for professional review, which also includes test firing and troubleshooting, but this is usually done with particular brands, and not for every inbound MG.

 

 

huggytree,

 

I enjoyed the video of your son firing the Stemple. He did great with it! I've never fired one, but would like to.

 

It looks like it worked out in the end, though it cost some extra bucks, and headaches. You should stock up on 9mm at current prices, because that gun is going to eat it up, and you'll want to keep that "full auto grin" on your son's face.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[ron_brock]

Thanks for the video. Very cool and I love that smile.

 

Ron