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Mysterious .351 French Thompson ..


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Hello everyone! I rummaged a bit in the French part of the history of the TSMG (1921-1930).


At that time, the service - Commission D’Experiences de Versailles (CEV) was engaged in small arms for France. In 1921, they purchased one model - Colt M1921 for review.


Model of 1921


tlzw1MT7a_8.jpg


In 1924, John Thompson personally visited France as part of the AOC delegation. He demonstrated CEV - Model of 1921 .45 ACP and heavy Model of 1923 .45 Remington-Thompson with bipod. Commission preference was given to Model of 1921.


Model of 1923


WLnOTKr8Hdk.jpg



However, CEV also requested a couple of Model Thompson .351 WSL for testing. Why .351 WSL? The French Army had experience using the full-auto version of the Winchester M1907 during WWI.



Winchester Model of 1907/1917


Kb5Bkqvd7so.jpg


Winchester .351 WSL


DFRcXjyK5mQ.jpg



As a result, in 1926, the only model (!) Thompson .351 was taken to France. But this turned out to be extremely unreliable. Failure occurred after only 10 shots.


Also in 1927, the British BSA delivered the CEV Thompson 9 mm. This model was more successful, but as everyone knows before September 1, 1939, the French only built the Maginot line ....


BSA-Thompson Model of 1927


GqfSLrpEf0c.jpg


If someone has a photo or information about Thompson .351 I will be grateful!


Thompson .351


gRuExBnK-Fo.jpg


Thank!

Edited by allweaponsww2
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I would speculate that it was a handmade, tool room sample. Based on the length of the sample cartridges in my collection:

.45 ACP Thompson Shotshell: 1.446" (36.73 mm)

.45 Remington-Thompson: 1.460" (37.09 mm)

.351 SL: 1.894" (48.11 mm)

The existing 1923 or shotshell magazines would certainly not accept the longer .351 so new magazines would have to be fabricated, likely a very few and hand made.

 

The receiver would have to be lengthened; magazine well, ejection port, and bolt travel increased. Many other internal parts modified too. The recoil spring changed for the force of the new cartridge, and the possibility that the angle/size of the Blish Lock might have to be altered to adjust the dwell time, all this could explain the problems with firearm.

 

Again, this is purely my personal speculation. And I haven't had my second cup of coffee yet!

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The .351 caliber was mentioned in your previous topic "About the military Model of 1923", in a reply I wrote, "I note that both the 'Gazette des Armes' article and 'TUTB', state that S/N 3075 was chambered for the Winchester .351 self-loading rifle cartridge".

 

The Ultimate Thompson Book states on page 153 that "At least one, currently in a French military museum, is chambered for the Winchester .351 self-loading cartridge, which was used in Winchester self-loading sporting rifles by the French Air Service during WW1".

 

Page 284 of the TUTB also mentions the French wished to test a Thompson in .351 calibre, as that cartridge already existed in the French military inventory, due to its use by WW1 balloon observers armed with the Winchester self-loading carbines. It goes on to state that two .351 caliber Thompsons were ordered by the French CEV, but only one was delivered in that caliber, together with a .45 calibre Thompson gun. The .351 calibre Thompson was tested again in 1926. After firing only 10 rounds the extractor broke and no spare parts had been ordered or shipped. So it was replaced with an extractor from a .45 model of 1921. Many failures ensued from this substitute extractor and testing ceased after 233 rounds as the.45 extractor became bent.

 

Stay safe

 

Richard

Edited by rpbcps
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Has a photo of this .351 TSMG ever been published. I do not know which collection in France the gun is in but it may be the one that Ian from Forgotten Weapons has gained access.

Anyone live in France who could check this out? Some detailed photos would be great.

 

Regards

AlanD

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The .351 caliber was mentioned in your previous topic "About the military Model of 1923", in a reply I wrote, "I note that both the 'Gazette des Armes' article and 'TUTB', state that S/N 3075 was chambered for the Winchester .351 self-loading rifle cartridge".

 

The Ultimate Thompson Book states on page 153 that "At least one, currently in a French military museum, is chambered for the Winchester .351 self-loading cartridge, which was used in Winchester self-loading sporting rifles by the French Air Service during WW1".

 

Page 284 of the TUTB also mentions the French wished to test a Thompson in .351 calibre, as that cartridge already existed in the French military inventory, due to its use by WW1 balloon observers armed with the Winchester self-loading carbines. It goes on to state that two .351 caliber Thompsons were ordered by the French CEV, but only one was delivered in that caliber, together with a .45 calibre Thompson gun. The .351 calibre Thompson was tested again in 1926. After firing only 10 rounds the extractor broke and no spare parts had been ordered or shipped. So it was replaced with an extractor from a .45 model of 1921. Many failures ensued from this substitute extractor and testing ceased after 233 rounds as the.45 extractor became bent.

 

Stay safe

 

Richard

 

 

Thanks Richard!
But now we have some confusion .. The photograph in the French magazine "Gazette des Armes" you presented presents a model known as the "M1923 French Model .45 Remington-Thompson". However, according to the authors of this journal, they claim that this Thompson (S/N 3075) M1923 has .351 WSL...
It is possible that in 1924 John T. Thompson introduced the French Commission to this model TSMG .45 Remingdon-Thompson:
WLnOTKr8Hdk.jpg
And in 1926 they tested Thompson S / N 3075 .351 WSL (the photo from "Gazette des Armes" ):
_9-aYl5v5rQ.jpg
A8nso3bOsHI.jpg
This has logic. Since CEV generally liked the military model and the concept of a more powerful cartridge, after the review of the M1923. They really could order from AOC Model of 1923 but under the patron .351 WSL.
Such conclusions ...
Thompson .351 this model ?? -
xS5NSGTsT1E.jpg
Edited by allweaponsww2
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I wrote the Colt Thompsons in French Service section in TUTB. The .351 Thompson was a regular style Thompson with .351 internals, which failed during French tests. I have never heard of the .351 cartridge being associated with the Model of 1923 Thompson.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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Victor,

As with a lot of publications, the authors sometimes get the facts wrong, our resident expert on the French Colt Thompsons is David though, so I would take more note of what he says in his post.

 

Next week, I am expecting another edition of "Gazette des Armes", published in 2009, in the mail. It has an article entitled, "The Thompson SMG in France between the two world wars", I'll see if that throws more light on the subject.

 

In France, I have still some contacts from my service in the legion, including a few officers I served with, who may have contacts to get me through the doors of the 'museum', to actually see the French Military Model Thompson. At the moment my former regiment is in high regard in France, having taken part in the operation, which eliminated the long time leader of the AQIM, Abdulmalek Droukel, earlier this month. So once I recover from my treatment later in the year, I'll look at following that up.

 

Stay safe

 

Richard

Edited by rpbcps
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Wow ! what an article . Seems I learn more and more. Thank you for putting this up on the board. would love to see what else you find out..

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I suspect that a completely new receiver was required for the .351 WSL Thompson. The overall length of that cartridge is 1.906 inches, which is considerably longer than the .45 ACP (1.275), the .45 Remington-Thompson (1.385), or even the .30 Carbine (1.680). The standard dimension, front to back, of the mag well on a .45 ACP Thompson is 1.630 inches. As I recall, the .30 Carbine receiver example was modified from the standard to accommodate that longer cartridge, and the .351 WSL receiver would have had to be that much longer in the mag well area.

 

The probable requirement for a new receiver may be the reason that only one was produced for the French trials even though they ordered two. The fact that no spare parts were sent with the test rifle implies to me that it was a tool room creation to try to meet the interest/requirements of the French for this caliber. The magazine for the .30 Carbine Thompson appears to be an in-the-white one-off creation, and I suspect the same would have been true for the .351 WSL, at least for the trial gun. For many reasons, I seriously doubt that Auto-Ordnance would have modified their receiver and action to accommodate the use of the Winchester Model 1907 magazines.

 

If anyone is ever able to locate the .351 WSL Thompson in France, I am certain we would all love to see pics. Hopefully, dimensions could be measured and markings documented to clarify how this gun was actually made.

 

Roger

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Great post Roger. A review of the two World War II .experimental 30 caliber carbines as pictured in TUTB is a perfect comparison for a potential Thompson gun in .351 WSL. There is little doubt a new receiver and magazines would have to be fabricated. When the two .30 caliber Thompson guns were built, Auto-Ordnance had the infrastructure in place to build these experimental guns. This did not exist for Auto-Ordnance in the mid 1920s. It would be very interesting to view photographs of this experimental Thompson gun in .351 WSL. Where was it built? How is it marked. Is there any period literature or instructions with it? Hopefully, Richard will be able to gain access.

 

I also wonder why this gun was not returned to Auto-Ordnance after the trails. Same with the Model of 1923 from Russia and other countries. Was there some unwritten rule if you tested a product, you got to keep it!

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