Melvin Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 25 or 30 years ago a local PA. 1st class gun smith built a 1928 Thompson for himself. He had access to from 10 Colt PA. State Police guns . He sold a lot off as parts and used some on his personal gun. He sold the gun shortly after he registered it. It has been in the same hands to this day. It was purchased to one of my best friends and now his health has slipped and now we are going to sell the gun. The Thompson has made many trips and used in many displays in Ohio. A large part of his collection was sold on this board about 2 years ago. His wife has approached me now to help her sell the Thompson. The gun itself is on of the best running Thompsons I have ever seen . He and I have put 1000's of rounds through our guns. We could shoot in his back yard . Before I sell the gun I want to determine if this wood is Colt. As it will affect the price and may be sold separately . People who have dealings with me know I do not play games. I will post one picture of the gun and the rest of the wood . And by the way it has a 2 piece actuator in it also. How long has it been since you have seen one of those for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 Melvin,You might want to check out this thread about the buttstocks with latches that do not have the tear drop cove for the release button. http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6343&hl=%2Btear+%2Bdrop+%2Bcolt+%2Bbuttstock+%2Blatch+%2Bbutton&do=findComment&comment=53231 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridgeport28A1 Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) I don't own a Colt Thompson but that distinct milled swivel location in the vertical foregrip was a Pennsylvania State Police feature. Edit: After viewing the photos on a laptop the foregrip swivel may not be a PA State Police swivel as they were more concave milled swivel. Someone with one of the PA State Police distinct milled swivels on a foregrip would be in a better position to offer their opinion. Edited October 24, 2018 by Bridgeport28A1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grease Gunner Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) The anchor on the front is what Colt's had. They numbered the rear of the stock and the buttplate so they could match up after refinishing.Pistol grips and foregrip is not my forte The buttplate matches Edited October 24, 2018 by Grease Gunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLansky Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 I checked some pictures I took of Colts I have sold and on all of them the anchor is upside down. also, on those guns, the anchor is tucked right up under the slide latch. i will check some other guns when I have a chance. I attach an example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLansky Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 well, I thought I attached an example. when I figure out how to do so I will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giantpanda4 Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 I agree with DLansky about the anchor. But I was not sure an upside down anchor and it's exact location are critical to originality, but it might be worth having others show anchors in locations like Melvin's above - if we can find them. I will try to post pics of mine when I get home. The grip - do you have more pics? I an not convinced that is not WWII... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1957 Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) I think the anchor may be too large, not in the correct location nor orientation. I also did not see an "R" on the buttplate. Here are a couple anchor marks to compare. Buttplate photos: Note "R" location, and the "closed" "4" verses and open Top on the "four". This view the R is on the buttplate This view the R is on the side of the hinge mount Not sure of the Font of the Four, if others have colt (remington) stocks that have a "4" it would be nice to see the Font that was used.Here is a close up of Colt (Remington) remington buttplate that has both the "6" and "1" for comparison. Also understand there could be variations, but this looks like a different font. Hope this helps.Sandman1957 Edited October 24, 2018 by Sandman1957 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1957 Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 The rear pistol grip also appears it may be a WWII grip. that will be easy to tell and it should not have a mark. Recommend removing the pistol grip and check for a "S" or "M" stamp. If it does, it is WWII era, If it does not have a stamp then it may be original. What you should "not" see on the rear pistol grip if it is Colt Era. Hope this helps, it looks like a very nice gun. Someone will be getting a great gun, and a nice piece of history. IMHO both the stock, and pistol are now part of its history.CheersSandman1957 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 Usually I find good pictures make it very to confirm something is correct. However, when something seems out of place, often an in-person inspection is needed to resolve any suspicions. That is certainly the case here. I too had a problem with the size, depth and right side up appearance of the anchor mark on the butt stock. The location is not as much of a problem for me. I have heard this mark has been counterfeited but have not seen any evidence of that. I also do not believe the lettering on the butt plate and butt stock mirrors known Colt's markings. The top of the number 4 on the butt plate and butt stock is open. Examples of this number on known Colt's examples I have seen show a closed 4 at the top of the number. Sandman referenced other number variations and most importantly, the lack of the letter "R" on the butt plate in one of three possible locations. I also am not impressed with the sling swivel. I suggest removing the swivel and seeing if it is marked by a World War II manufacturer or subcontractor. The slide stock assembly is also suspect. Note the machining marks in the cut out for the release button. Colt's are much more polished in this area. I also suspect World War II manufacturing markings on all these parts if inspected. The presentation of the pictures do not allow me to make a positive identification on the grip. I need a straight away picture from both sides. However, simply removing the grip may tell the story. Laying flat the fore grip has a Colt's look to it but I am not certain. This piece gives me the most problems with only pictures. I also do not think the swivel is inletted into the wood as deep as I remember on other Pennsylvania State police guns. It would be interesting to see if the swivel has a World War II manufacturing mark. That said, I feel certain our Board expert on Colt's wood, gijive, will make this a learning experience for everyone on this fore grip - and the other pieces as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted October 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 First I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to help me out with project. It is an unusual Thompson for sure . The part that surprised me the most is the 2 piece actuator . To have this the builder must of had access to Colt items. The butt stock does not seen to have the same font used by Colt . May be early Savage ?. The fore grip fits my hand like my Colts did . I will pull the swivel and provide better pictures later. Long time Thompson collectors know who you are helping out. Thanks for all the time and effort I will have more pictures and information late tonight. Chuck K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adg105200 Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 Interesting for sure. Like others, I can't be certain; but it could be a ww2 era buttstock. Is there a Maker's Mark on the side of the buttstock slide hardware or possibly a 3rd matching number, or any stamps in the wood under the slide hardware? Is there any maker stamp in the channel of the front vertical grip or is it unmarked? From the angle of the first 2 pics it does look like a ww2 rear grip. Hopefully Gijive chimes in. Looking forward to more pictures. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorcar Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 I know we are discussing wood but, what's the deal with the front grip hanger? It has the appearance of a West Hurley production item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 For those of you that have the Cox book, turn to page 11 and see the vertical fore grip of Pennsylvania State Police Colt's NO 1060 pictured on the bottom right hand corner. Note how the swivel has a screw that attaches the swivel to the swivel base. This type of swivel is definitely not the same as the one pictured above. However, I have pictures of Pennsylvania State Police NO 1093 and it appears to have the same type of swivel as pictured above. Go figure! I have never examined a Pennsylvania State Police Colt's. Does any Board member have pictures of any of these Thompson guns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aut-ord-co Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 Saw this post today, and just wanted to say that the gentleman that owns this gun is also a close friend of mine in the Thompson community. We had many ebay battles back in the 90's when interesting Thompson "stuff" was around before we finally met in Ohio at an early TCA show. This gun was brought to the many annual show and shoots, as well as, the three day shows that the TCA displayed in Pennsylvania (SAR, etc.) over the years. Certainly a hybrid, re-read Chuck's first paragraph. But an excellent operating Thompson gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted October 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 A few more detailed pictures of the grip and swivel . Motorcar good eye more on he gun later. Hope these pictures clear up the issues . I am almost 100% sure it is a Colt grip as I have owned both early Savage and Colt guns it has the look and feel . Thanks for all the help please do not get bored with all the photos. Chuck K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 Chuck,Is the Guardian of the fore grip included in the deal I believe your right about it being a Colt's grip. The sling swivel looks like a commercial product to me. I have several sling swivels and all either have the Stevens Arms square S mark on the side of the swivel base or the Y mark from Yale & Towne Co. on the bottom side of the swivel base. The pin in the center of the swivel base on all of mine, while present, does not protrude from the base like shown in the above pictures. I would assume Savage Arms manufactured the swivels on the very early Thompson guns but do not know how or where marked. It will be interesting to compare the sling swivel from this fore grip to the sling swivel in the butt stock. If possible, see if the swivels will interchange with each other. All good stuff! Thank you for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indochinavet Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 foregrip appears ok, while the buttstock is 90% edited. to me the attaching latch bluing seems more like the standard dulite and not the carbonia bluing, while the "locking lug" looks like just polished and not the nickel type like on 1921,s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) Chuck, The front grip appears to be definitely a Colt grip. The pictures of the rear grip aren't clear enough to make a positive determination, but I would lean towards WWII grip. The buttstock, in my opinion, is a WWII buttstock with a fake anchor stamp. The stamp is too big and isn't configured correctly. The font on the butt plate and wood is smaller than the font used by Remington on the Colt guns and the butt plate doesn't appear to have the Remington "R" stamped on it. A butt plate in the 4000 number range on a Colt buttstock would likely have the R stamped in more than one location. Hope this helps. Edited October 25, 2018 by gijive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halftrack Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) Chuck, The front grip appears to be definitely a Colt grip. The pictures of the rear grip aren't clear enough to make a positive determination, but I would lean towards WWII grip. The buttstock, in my opinion, is a WWII buttstock with a fake anchor stamp. The stamp is too big and isn't configured correctly. The font on the butt plate and wood is smaller than the font used by Remington on the Colt guns and the butt plate doesn't appear to have the Remington "R" stamped on it. A butt plate in the 4000 number range on a Colt buttstock would likely have the R stamped in more than one location. Hope this helps.Out of curiosity, if a said Thompson was in possession of a respected owner for 40 years, were people forging/faking colt parts that early? In other words (I guess this question pertains to those collecting Thompsons for decades) how far back can one assume fake Colt parts/marks began to show up? Lets say my buddy John had a Thompson in his collection for 30 plus years and John is not a con artist. Would colt markings and furniture still be susceptible to forgery on his Thompson? Just trying to educate myself. Edited October 25, 2018 by halftrack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 Halftrack, A Colt gun from 40 years ago would likely not be messed with from an older collector, but the wood could certainly have been replaced with WWII wood, even 40 years ago. I don't think the gun in question has been faked intentionally According to the seller, it was built up from parts that a gunsmith had available and WWII wood certainly could have been used. I know the seller and the person that owned the gun and they are not trying to fake anything, someone, at some point, intentionally tried it make the WWII buttstock look more like the original Colt wood, probably just to please himself, not to fool someone forty years later. Whoever put the gun together probably just didn't have all the Colt wood available and used nice WWII wood to make it look more like a Colt gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted October 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2018 gijive , Thank you for all your expert information . I will send you a PM in a day or two of how Mrs. Wolfe is going to handle the sale. I'm only the information person . After handling the Thompson , Shooting the Thompson , Using it my and TCA displays I never took a good enough look at it. It is truly a one of a kind. I do not think I ever saw a malfunction and we ran drum after drum dumps . The next pictures are what really have me confused . Bill Meosky's Thompson is on the bottom . The other on top is the one that will be for sale after I get all the issues cleared up. If the builder of this gun was cutting corners why would he use what is seen in the next set of pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted October 26, 2018 Report Share Posted October 26, 2018 If the builder of this gun was cutting corners why would he use what is seen in the next set of pictures. Did the builder acknowledge they were "cutting corners" when they assembled this Colt TSMG? 25-30 tears ago the collector appreciation of a 2-piece Colt Navy actuator was not paramount as it became 15 years ago. It was not seen as any more desirable than a WWII knurled 1928 actuator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waffen Und Bier Posted October 26, 2018 Report Share Posted October 26, 2018 I don't know enough to comment one way or another about this gun and am not passing judgement on this gun. PD modifications are part of a gun's history. Someone asked about faking 40 years ago. Wasn't there a dealer who published a catalog every year down in Arizona who had a questionable reputation for faking 1927's, compensators, etc. Not saying any names just in case he was not a faker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted October 26, 2018 Report Share Posted October 26, 2018 Waffen Und Bier, I agree with you that a certain firearms dealer in Arizona was misrepresenting compensators back in the 1970's. I made a distinction in answering Halftrack's question since he referred to a respected collector purposely forging or faking Colt parts, not a dealer who was apparently trying to increase the appeal of his guns for sale. I also agree with Arthur on his assessment of the two-piece actuator. I don't believe the presence of a two-piece actuator would have discouraged too many shooters from using it 40 years ago, I know that it didn't discourage me from using it in my first gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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