Wwii L Drums

[Motorcar]

Collectors firearms in Houston has 4 WWII L drums for sale in the new arrivals section of their web site. Range in price from $600 - $1,000. One looks like it was drug around Texas in the back of a pick up truck. Just in case one of you needs another. www.collectorsfirearms.com

[Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner]

Looks like 2 down, 2 to go.

[TSMG28]

They had more than the four that were displayed on their web site. The cover of MIS210 is definitely Seymour while the body is Bridgeport. I think the Seymour (MIS207) and beat-up Crosby (MIS209) are still available. Some of the others they have/had available also have Seymour covers and Bridgeport bodies. Somebody did a mix and match at some point in the life of these drums. Unfortunately, the folks at Collector's Firearms did not realize the differences.

 

MIS208 and a Seymour not on the web site are headed for my house soon. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif

 

Roger

[rkr]

You beat me by about one minute on the nice Crosby. Great deal at $650 as well. Enjoy!

[TSMG28]

Rob,

 

That's a switch. I am usually the one who just missed a buy. A Bridgeport 1st variation comes to mind. I missed that one by five minutes a couple years back and haven't seen one since.

 

Did you pick up any of the other drums that they have/had?

 

Motocar,

 

Thanks for the heads up!! The opportunity was much appreciated.

 

Roger

[Motorcar]

Well boys, Three more were added to the website on May 6 in addition to the two that are left from the previous post. The new ones are again in the "new arrivals" section dated 5/6/05 and look nice. Did any of you that bought ask where the Thompsons are that all of these original drums keep coming from? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/huh.gif They are not a class 3 dealer, but I know they buy from all over the country. It is quite a store to shop in if you get to the Houston area.

[gijive]

They are asking top dollar for mismatched WWII drums. The bodies are Auto-Ordnance and the covers are Seymour. A little too high, although they appear to be in good condition. $600.00 to $800.00 would be more like it.

[Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner]

I offered 450.00 for the beat up Crosby and they came back saying 550.00 was the best they could do. Someone probably took it at the 595.00 listed price. They've got people interest now, they will hold out for the 995.00 on the so called Bridgeport drums. Too many folks around ready to say "email sent'' before they think about it. The price of drums just went up another notch. Next time a newbie says "What's a mismatched Bridgeport drum worth?" Someone will be quick to seay 995.00 if you can get it.

[TSMG28]

I agree that the prices on the mismatched drums are out of line. The matched Seymours at $975 are even high. When I questioned the Seymour price, the response I got was "A guy has one listed on the Internet for $1495, so this is a good price." How's that for reasoning. Someone else is "asking" $1495, so that justifies the higher price on the Seymour vs. the Crosby.

 

The proprietors are obviously a little out of their league concerning Thompson drums. No, they have not been willing to say where they are getting these from (no big surprise there...).

 

Since they got so much interest in their first posting, I am guessing the prices are going to stay high until the drums don't sell.

 

Roger

[Mike Hammer]

Roger: I belive you are totally mistaken about the MIS210 drum being a missmatched drum as I have it in my posession. It matches exactly two other Bridgeport drums that I have had for years. Please tell me what information you are basing this on? This drum is exactly the same as pictured in Frank's "American Thunder" 1st edition page 163, and 164 for the cover and page 165 for the body. The body plate is Bridgeport stamped along with the "U"of The United Specialities Company of Chicago. The cover plate is stamped MAGAZINE TYPE L", THOMPSON SUBMACHINEGUN, 50 CARTRIDGES CAL 45, FOR 1928 MODEL WIND TO 9 OR 11 CLICKS, it also has the "U" stamp. These are examples of the later manufactured Bridgeport drums as opposed to the earlier Bridgeport drums where the side plate lists the 1921 and 1928 winds separately. How do you interpret this drum as having a Seymour cover??? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif

 

MIke Hammer

[gijive]

QUOTE (Mike Hammer @ May 14 2005, 06:46 PM)

These are examples of the later manufactured Bridgeport drums as opposed to the earlier Bridgeport drums where the side plate lists the 1921 and 1928 winds separately. How do you interpret this drum as having a Seymour cover???    http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif

Mike Hammer,

 

The drums currently pictured on the Collectors Firearms website have Seymour covers ( see page 167 of American Thunder). If you purchased one from them and it has a proper Auto-Ordnance, Bridgeport, Ct cover, then they are using the same photograph of a mismatched drum to describe a Bridgeport varity.

 

By the way, the Bridgeport, Ct marked drums did not have any winding instructions marked for 1921 Models. All Bridgeport drums say "Wind to 9 or 11 Clicks." The last model that mentions specific winding instructions for a 1921 Model are the Worcester Presssed Steel marked drums that have a New York, N.Y. address.

 

[Mike Hammer]

It appears then they were using the wrong photo. It seems then that my other Bridgeport drum which looks much older, has an early "New York" type winding instructions on the plate for the cover. It does not look like a missmatched drum though, I'm wondering if this is a very early Bridgeport variant, as Frank mentions there were a number of variations. I do love these old drums though, they are so well built and I have never had a problem with any of them, will not touch one of the Kahr drums, they reek of cheepness. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

 

Mike Hammer

[Z3BigDaddy]

Guess this kinda answers the question on price of older drums now that the Krap Drums have been put into circulation..... As many of us predicted it had no effect.......

[gijive]

Mike Hammer,

 

Does your "earlier" drum with the 1921 winding instructions have any other markings on the cover under the winding key hole? Such as any "Wind to 9 Clicks" instructions without a Thompson bullet logo? If so, and the body has the Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport, Ct address on the rear, the drum is probably a Bridgeport body and a Worcester Pressed Steel cover. Also, does the cover have the drain slots on the face plate?

[TSMG28]

Mike,

 

Actually, the reason you have a matched drum is because I told Collector's Firearms to switch the cover between two of their drums. They had one that was not shown on the web site that had a Bridgeport cover and Seymour body. MS-210 as shown on the web site had a Seymour cover and Bridgeport body. If your cover has the WIND TO 9 OR 11 CLICKS and the Bullet Logo, it is probably a fourth variation Bridgeport (I think that was the only Bridgeport cover that they had). If so the letters should be 0.180 inches high.

 

The pictures shown of MS-210 had the block U instead of the outlined U, which makes the body a third or fifth variation. That is a slight mismatch, but still Bridgeport. Most people won't care which variation they have, especially if it runs well.

 

I am using as my reference the recent article in TCN on Bridgeport drums.

 

gijive,

 

Actually, according to the TCN article, the first two variations of the Bridgeport drum had the 1921 winding instructions on the cover face plate. The first variation also had the New York, N.Y., U.S.A. address on the body face plate. That is the so-called transitional Bridgeport drum.

 

Roger

 

 

[gijive]

QUOTE (TSMG28 @ May 16 2005, 01:33 PM)

Actually, according to the TCN article, the first two variations of the Bridgeport drum had the 1921 winding instructions on the cover face plate.  The first variation also had the New York, N.Y., U.S.A. address on the body face plate.  That is the so-called transitional Bridgeport drum. Roger

Roger,

 

Thanks for the correction. Weren't the early variations still made by Worcester Pressed Steel with the 1921 winding instructions if they still had the New York address on them? Did the earliest versions with the New York address have the U stamped on them? I guess I didn't read the article closely enough.

[TSMG28]

gijive,

 

The first variation was made by United Specialties, has the U on the cover and body face plates and the New York address including the comma after the N.Y. like the Colt drums had. I don't recall whether the font and spacing was the same as the Colt drums. Both of the first two variations have the WIND TO 9 CLICKS in an arc under the winding key and both the 1921 and 1928 winding instructions on the cover face plate like the Worcester drums. Starting with the third variation, the arc stamping changed to WIND TO 9 OR 11 CLICKS as did the cover front plate.

 

Interestingly, all of the cover face plates have the oulined U, while all of the body face plates except the fourth variation have the block U. Not to stir the waters, but might this imply that the two halves were made in different plants????

 

Mike Hammer,

 

Just to complete the saga, they still have three "Bridgeport" drums up on their web site. All three have Seymour covers and Bridgeport bodies. I expect they will work fine, especially with Bridgeport innards, but those drums are mismatched and they are asking top dollar for them. I would not be surprised to see the price moderate some when they don't sell. The original Seymour and beat-up Crosby are still on the site as well.

 

Roger

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

QUOTE

The first variation was made by United Specialties, has the U on the cover and body face plates and the New York address including the comma after the N.Y. like the Colt drums had.

TSMG28

 

 

Oh my God!!! More drum confusion. It is the missing comma after "New York" on the Colt drums that is the distinction between those and the Savage and Bridgeport drums, and not the additional comma after "N.Y.," that appears on all three, but not on the Worcester drums.

 

Since both the Savage and Bridgeport drums were actually made by the United Specialties Company in Chicago, Illinois and both have "U" stamped on front and back covers, but according to the TCN article, now some New York addressed drums, I guess formerly identified as Savage drums, are being credited as "transitional" Bridgeport, Connecticut drums, even though the drum is neither manufactured in New York or Connecticut? Is the "U.S.CO." stamped on the hub of all these TCN article "five" Bridgeport variations?

 

Didn't Tracie Hill in his book attempt to create a new pattern of drum by identifying the third no "NO" stamped Colt drum as a Worcester" drum?

[Mike Hammer]

Roger: The Bridgeport drum I received from Collectors Firearms is exactly as you described with the cover having the "wind to 9 or 11 clicks" and the Thompson bullet logo, if this is a "late" Bridgeport I don't really mind as it is in unused mint condition. If you had something to do with having them match up the correct bodies with the covers I appreciate your efforts. I was expecting an all matching drum and I would have returned it if sent otherwise. At $750 I thought it was a bit pricey but then again I've not seen much of a drop in prices on the older drums, and those are the only ones I'm interested in.

As far as the "older" Bridgeport drum I mentioned, the body plate has the Bridgeport address with the "block" U. The cover plate has the 21 and 28 winding instructions and stamped in an arc under the winding key on the cover body is "wind to 9 clicks", I take this to be one of the "early" Bridgeport drums.

I don't have a copy of the new TCN article on the drums, but it sounds like an interesting article. I'm curious to know if Doug Richardson's pamphlet on Thompson drums is worth picking up a copy?

 

Mike Hammer

[TSMG28]

Mike,

 

Yes, Doug's Drum Magazine book is worth having. Unless he has updated it recently (my copy is a couple years old), it is a little dated, but it contains excellent detail on most of the drum variations (prior to West Hurley/Kahr). He did publish an article in TCN after he had the books made that commented about finding a new Bridgeport variation that was not in his book. The recent article in TCN showed the five Bridgeport variations that have been identified (so far). All were made by United Specialties.

 

Your "older" Bridgeport drum is either first or second variation. If it has the New York address, it is first. If it has the Bridgeport address, it is second.

 

If you don't have copies of TCN does that mean that you are not a member of the Thompson Collector's Association? If not, I encourage you to join. See TCA Web Site. The newsletter comes out once a quarter and the last two have had updated information on drum magazines. Several issues in 2001 had an excellent breakdown on all of the known box magazines. You can find the 2001 articles online at The Unofficial Tommy Gun Page. Right now, that site only contains issues between 1997 and 2003. Back issues can be acquired from Tracie Hill for a nominal fee. As a member of TCA, you can also attend one of the annual Show & Shoots that TCA holds (see other threads).

 

Enjoy the drums - both owning and using!

 

Roger

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

As of 2003, Richardson identified only one Bridgeport Drum and of course the George Goll marked Bridgeport Drum variation in his last updated 1996 publication. So in the last 9 years, somebody beat DH's time and discovered at least two other variation Bridgeport Drums?

[Mike Hammer]

What seems incredible now is that nearly a quarter million of the wartime 50 rd drums were destroyed at the end of 1944 due to being "obsolete" because of the 30 rd magazine. What an tremendous waste. Makes you wonder how many old 50 rounders are left out there? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/sad.gif

 

Mike Hammer

[Z3BigDaddy]

Or when they lined up all the PT boats and lit them all on fire......

[gijive]

Mike Hammer and Roger,

 

I reread the recent TCA article on the Universal Stamping made drums for Auto-Ordnance. I stand corrected, there is a U stamped drum with 1921 Model winding instructions. I had previously believed they were last made by Worcester. Thanks for posting the correction.

 

I still wouldn't refer to it as a Bridgeport, however, it does have the New York Auto-Ordnance address. Regardless of manufacturer, it would be referred to as a "New York" drum.

[TSMG28]

gijive,

 

I agree with your comment about calling the first United Specialties drum a "Bridgeport" drum. I was thinking about that last night and came to the same conclusion you did. Doug Richardson referred to this version as a Savage drum because of its coincidence with the "commercial" Savage Thompson which also had the New York address on the receiver.

 

Perhaps the best way to refer to these drums is the way we refer to all other drums, by the manufacturer (or supposed manufacturer). Therefore, my earlier post should have said there are five variations of the United Specialties drums rather than saying Bridgeport drums.

 

Arthur,

 

If we use the terminology above, Doug actually identified three variations of the United Specialties drums in his book. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, he then added a fourth in a TCN article a number of years after his book was created. Doug identified the first variation, which he called the Savage drum, the fourth variation, which he simply refers to in his book as the Bridgeport drum, and the George Goll drum, which from the photos appears to be either a third variation example or a one-off special (it's hard to tell from the picture in Doug's book). I don't have the TCN article in front of me, but I recall (hopefully correctly), that the variation he found later was the second (with the WIND TO 9 CLICKS on the cover but the Bridgeport address on the body).

 

Of course, as Doug points out in his book and Tracie points out in the latest TCN article, swapping of bodies and covers was common, so who knows how many true variations were originally manufactured. Without any records or personal testimony, we will never know for sure.

 

All of this does not represent any original research on my part. I was simply trying to answer some questions that arose using available resources (Doug's drum book, TCN, and some personal observartions). Doug Richardson has probably forgotten more about Thompsons than I know, so I have to defer to him and Tracie when it comes to the minutia.

 

Mike,

 

As other posts have mentioned, I don't even want to think about all of the unique history and material that has been destroyed because it was out of vogue.

 

Roger