drfcolt Posted August 22, 2015 Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 I am looking at a Winchester 1897 Trench Gun made in about 1938 (S/N E8663xx) that has no military markings. The widow of the deceased owner claims that he carried it during WWII. Were there military guns with no property markings? Photos: http://s277.photobucket.com/user/drfcolt/library/Winchester%201897%20Trench%20Gun Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Many civilian shotguns were pressed into service in WWII. However, without any markings or a serial number in the range of U.S. Martial firearms, the story does not add any value to the firearm. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin601 Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Could of been a personal weapon, taken into service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfcolt Posted August 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 The asking price is $1,300 shipped. Does this sound reasonable? There don't seem to be a lot of 1897 Trench Guns around for sale either property marked or not. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmagee1917 Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 You would need to post a lot more close ups and better pictures before a judgement could be made . Some tips . What is the choke marking on the barrel ? Should be cyl .Is all the barrel info readable or is some hid by the handguard ? Does the mag cap have a stud which goes into a hole on the rear of the adapter ? Markings on the adapter ? Front sight bead hole in barrel ? Barrel taper fit handguard or is there a gap / bushing at the front ?Lots of fakes / put togethers out there . Beware .Price is a steal if original WW2 trench , fair for a period put together , high for a fake .Depends if you want a WW2 collectable , shooter , or wall hanger.Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfcolt Posted August 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Thanks. Let me see if I can get more photos/information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfcolt Posted August 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 Question ..... What's the significance of the number of holes in the handguard (4 vs 6)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmagee1917 Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 6 row is WW1 and early -mid WW2 for Winchester . 4 row is late WW2 and on . All Stevens/ Savage are 6 row .Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfcolt Posted September 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) More information and lots of photos:- What is the choke marking on the barrel? CYL- Is the barrel info readable or is some hid by the handguard? some hidden- Does the magazine cap have a stud which goes into a hole on the rear of the adapter? does the handguard have to be removed to see this?- Markings on adapter? does the handguard have to be removed to see this?- Front sight bead on barrel? no, it's on the handguard- Barrel taper fit handguard or is there a gap/bushing at the front? tapered/no bushings S/N: E866365 See photos: http://s277.photobucket.com/user/drfcolt/library/Winchester%201897 Edited September 4, 2015 by drfcolt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmagee1917 Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 I'm sorry , but this one isn't real , it's a put together .The serial number is too high for WW1 use and way too low for WW2 , it was made between wars .All WW1 trenches were solid frame guns . Trenches were produced again in the late '20s and through the '30s . All those noted as original were built on take-down frames as were all WW2 trenchguns .All WW1 and through early WW2 adaptors had either " pat. appl.for " on the right side above the sling swivel or " pat.Jan.15 & Mar.19, 1918 " on the left side of the barrel enclosure tube. Only a few mid-WW2 6-row adapters had no markings , nor did the 4-row adaptors afterward . " W " marked adaptors were not used on factory '97s. Now , back in '02 I bought a fully restored , refinished '97 for $1100 to use as a shooter . It has served me well though I do take out the China made one more . It is up to you on value , but a quick read through the '97 chapters in Bruce Canfield's book might get them to lower it to a more reasonable figure if you're looking for a shooter .HTH , Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfcolt Posted September 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2015 (edited) Yea, due to the S/N I was pretty sure it wasn't an original trench gun - thanks for verifying it for me. What would you say the quality of it as a fake/reproduction? Gun is a real Winchester 1897 and the S/N puts it at about 1938 manufacture and is said to function well. Seems to have all the right parts in the right places, just lacks the proper marking, etc .... The real catcher is the handguard. Is the handguard after-market? If so, can you give insight to the manufacturer, etc?Also, handguard seems to fit well with no shims, etc. Would the barrel on a normal 20" 1938 '87 allow for this? Could the handguard be an un-marked Winchester? Thanks again. Edited September 5, 2015 by drfcolt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted September 5, 2015 Report Share Posted September 5, 2015 I've never seen a marking on a reproduction handguard. I believe most of them are made in India or China. I have one that I bought for $30 several years back, and was going to put on one of my Stevens guns that is a trench gun, but is missing the handguard. I tried to put it on, and the fit was not good, and it would have scratched the finish. I also decided I didn't want to put a repro handguard on an original trench gun for various reasons. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfcolt Posted September 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2015 (edited) The handguard seems to fit real well on this one. Also, I see that the rear sling-swivel is not right. I checked with my local gunsmith and he has a few of the military ones, so replacing it will be no problem - he has done it before and knows how to do it properly. If I can get this for a reasonable price, i"m going for it. Win '87's seem to be scarce and perhaps I could get a proper handguard down the road. I suppose the gun without the handguard would be considered a "riot gun", is this correct? Heck, I may even throw some more money at it and get a Cody/Winchester letter for it. Thanks for all of your help. Edited September 5, 2015 by drfcolt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmagee1917 Posted September 8, 2015 Report Share Posted September 8, 2015 The riot barrells had a taper on them , more so than the little or none of a trench . That is why I asked about the shims . Aftermarket adaptors were usually made to fit a cut down long barrel or riot barrel but might fit a trench , too , with a wider gap left . You'd need to mike them to be sure . Depending on the time frame of the conversion , a military trench barrel / adaptor could have been added .Again , more info needed to be sure .Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfcolt Posted September 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2015 One thing I also found out is that the barrel once had a bead on it or a provision for a bead. It was filled with solder at some time. Does this reveal anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmagee1917 Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 Yes , combined with the cyl marking , it was once a riot .The military shimed riots and put adaptors on them to make trench guns after the war , but with no military markings ( including arsonal rebuild markings ) , I'd say civilian modification .Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmagee1917 Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 We could be looking at a case of a WW2 veteran who carried a trenchgun in battle having a copy made post war . Then the " I carried a gun just like this " became " This is what I carried " which was interpeted as " this is the one I carried " .Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfcolt Posted September 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) We could be looking at a case of a WW2 veteran who carried a trenchgun in battle having a copy made post war . Then the " I carried a gun just like this " became " This is what I carried " which was interpeted as " this is the one I carried " .ChrisI believe you probably hit the nail on the head, The non-military rear sling-swivel would also make sense in this case. I guess we have a riot that was converted to a trench at sometime in it's life. Would the riots have a non-military sling swivel? How rare are the 1930's riot guns? Thanks again. Edited September 9, 2015 by drfcolt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmagee1917 Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 Riots rarely left the factory with swivels . Many had them added in their life .My " thing " is USGI WW2 , so I can't speak much about outside that.Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhetzer Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 This is more simple than is being made. If there are no markings, it is not a trench gun. I hear this story all the time. People look at things like this and try to justify it in any way. I'm not saying that's what's happening here from the buyer, but the sellers are usually the worst perpetrators of this. When a gun was brought into service, off the shelf of a store or from the factory, they were marked. I've seen countless cobbled together guns and heard every story you can imagine. I'm glad he came here to ask the questions. Nothing worse than dropping that kind of money finding out you got duped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 I ran across a '97 last night with the "flaming bomb" on the ejection port side where the barrel meets the receiver but the barrel had been changed out. How hard would it be to find a correct barrel for this gun? It had the sling swivel on the butt stock but nothing on the front end tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 This is more simple than is being made. If there are no markings, it is not a trench gun. I hear this story all the time. People look at things like this and try to justify it in any way. I'm not saying that's what's happening here from the buyer, but the sellers are usually the worst perpetrators of this. When a gun was brought into service, off the shelf of a store or from the factory, they were marked. I've seen countless cobbled together guns and heard every story you can imagine. I'm glad he came here to ask the questions. Nothing worse than dropping that kind of money finding out you got duped.That's incorrect. All the material I've read says that most World War I M97's did not have any martial markings. My World War I trench does not have those markings and falls in the range of early trenches and has all the correct features of an early trench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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