Jump to content


Photo

Buying an M60


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 83Baron

83Baron

    Regular Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 235 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 November 2015 - 09:47 AM

I'm getting serous about buying an m60 next, and just want to see if I am correct in that an original Saco defence maremont e1 will run about 50k, and an RIA or similar make will be about 10k less. Thanks
  • 0

#2 MG08

MG08

    RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 434 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 November 2015 - 09:58 PM

in general terms, yes that is a decent approximation.  there are a few other makers out there, but the pricing should be consistent.  Condition, reweld or not  and accessories will make a difference. 


  • 0

#3 83Baron

83Baron

    Regular Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 235 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:58 PM

Thanks MG08. What are the pros versus cons of buying an original versus rebuild. I ask because I've heard there were some design flaws and functionality issues like the bipod on the barrel, etc. in the original m60 that were corrected with later versions, I.e. E4 and later. Hence, wondering if better to buy an RIA or RIA already converted to e4 or e6, rather than shell out more to convert an original. Thank you for the feedback.
  • 0

#4 MG08

MG08

    RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 434 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 November 2015 - 01:33 PM

Well, I guess it depends on what you want.  I have carried the original ( unusual as a Navy officer, but I am pretty weird) and carried and used the E4 in subsequent work.   Unless you are really abusing the gun, the likely hood of you wearing it out because the bipod is on the barrel vs gas tube is minimal.  The E4 is lighter, handier and a one man weapon.  Which is cooler for you ?   Some guys like the original  "look" to the E1.  functionally, the improvements in the E4 make it better to use and shoot, but not in a way the recreational shooter would realy notice.  I shoot mine off of mounts for fun, and it makes it easier for novices to fire it.  I shoulder fire the E4, and it is easy for me.  I cant remember the last time I fired one off the bipod.  ooops guess I did in the photo !  when it was used for training or real, we almost always left the bipod folded and threw the gun up onto a support of some type.  The bipod hangs up on stuff when unfolded and moving.  My choice would have been to strip it off the gun, but those were Gvt guns so we could not really modify them.  The big question is - what to buy ?  Well, guess the question is how much money do you have ?  If money is no object, get a nice used Maremont gun.  Anything "unfired" will coat a premium and then you do not dare fire it.  These are fun to shoot.  you can get desert Ord. to upgrade a E1 for less money that what the difference  an E4 will bring in intial cost. Plus it is easy to swap parts out.  If money is an issue ( always is with me) RIA guns work fine. Both of Mine had intial issues with what I suspect were substandard parts, but once we got those issues ironed out the guns work fine.  I have three M60s right now, and they are fun to shoot.  Read up on the reference guide noted in another string.  Shoot good ammo - do not cheap out or it will cost you in frustration and potential damage. spare bolts. Good springs.  have fun.

 

 

ESS%20-%2013SEP05%20-%20DAY6%20_69_.JPG

 

Brian%20With%20M60%202.jpg

 

Brian%20w%20M-60.jpg

 

DSCN0898.jpg


  • 0

#5 83Baron

83Baron

    Regular Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 235 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 November 2015 - 12:00 AM

A big help! Thank you very much for the reputable and well versed analysis. Sounds like the maremont e1 would be the way to go, and then you always have upgrade possibilities down the road. A couple final thoughts. As long as you don't abuse the weapon, the problems you hear with receiver stretch over time, etc. should not be an issue? I guess op rods since you have to sand them down over time from the burrs that I hear usually form. You want to make sure there were never any welds done to the gun. Anything else to look for in a pre-buy inspection of a maremont e1 to make sure you are retaining most of the value they unfortunately require these days? Thanks again! Great pictures as well, looks like you have a unique and varied perspective into this cool and historic weapon!
  • 0

#6 MG08

MG08

    RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 434 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 November 2015 - 04:45 PM

The op rods get a burr where they ride in the bolt channel, but again you have to fire a lot of rounds to get this effect.  It is an easy fix, and Op rods are easy to get.  Propper lubrication also helps.  Check the compression on the recoil spring.  these need replacement from time to time.  Whe we say "reweld" it really depends on what was "rewelded".  Trunnions that were cut and rewelded can be problematic.  Based on your response above, It should not be hard for you to get a nice original Maremont ( which will hold it's value regardless).  A rebuilt gun with new rails etc built on an uncut trunnion would be in the same category.    Again - there are no real problems with RIA guns.  Some guns are registered with the number on the trunnion, some on the channel .  If you envision a rebuild in the future, the parts that are "registered" or replaceable can be important.   I know some guys who really abuse the guns for fun and profit ( video of melting a barrel in the M60 by continuous fire ) but really - unless you are planning to shoot 100,000 rds through the gun, you should not run into issues.   I have enough MGs that I rarely fire more than a few thousand rounds a year through any of them.  I ran 3,000 rds through my MG08 this summer, had a blast , but it was the first time in probably 15 years we fired it.  Correct lubes, good USGI parts, and attention to stuff falling off from vibration  - like screws, barrel plugs, etc.  Look at the MG buying price guide, talk to guys and dealers about what is available, be able to recognize a good deal if you see it.  Watch for parts, there are a lot of cool accessories out there. the London Brdige ammo bags for the gun are one of the best I found.  the pop up used on Ebay every so often.  When I go do some contract training work, I bring my own gear like the London Brdige hang on amo bag, and a good sling .  ( wider, padded, and clips on each end, with much easier adjustments. )

the M60 is still in use by certain special operations groups, as the E4 and E6, and as  a training tool  in second line units  as the original  E1 gun.  A lot of the guns we used for training are original Maremont guns, with significant wear.  We run blanks in them for MILES, and with a little care the guns run great.  ( ammo can suck, but that is a different issue)

 

DSC05391.JPGDSC07971.JPG
DSC01066.JPGDSC00361.JPGDSC01988.JPGDSC00375.JPGDSC00660.JPGDSC00368.JPGM60%20line%20up.JPG


Edited by MG08, 30 November 2015 - 05:34 PM.

  • 0

#7 83Baron

83Baron

    Regular Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 235 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 December 2015 - 10:52 AM

Thank you for all the helpful information, and for showing the pictures. The hunt continues!
  • 0

#8 MG08

MG08

    RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 434 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 December 2015 - 12:15 PM

Keep us aprised of your search - the looking is half the fun - well maybe not half, but it is still a mission to enjoy.   feel free to post other questions, we will try to answer them or find someone who can .........


  • 0

#9 DINK

DINK

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 207 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 December 2015 - 03:17 PM

I recently picked up an RIA gun and had it upgraded to E6 configuration at Desert Ordnance.  The nice part about it is that they totally rebuilt the receiver as part of the upgrade so everything but the sheet metal channel with the serial number on it is brand new.  I still have the option or running it in "old school" Vietnam configuration, as it takes about ten minutes to totally strip it down and replace the parts with either the VN "pig" parts or the modern E6 sexiness.

 

My only bitch is with the ejection pattern.  As one of those damn lefties, I get pummeled on my right shoulder with the brass, but since several of my other guns do the same thing I'm kind of used to it.  I may try to whip up a shell deflector for it.


  • 0

#10 MG08

MG08

    RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 434 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 December 2015 - 07:33 PM

I recently picked up an RIA gun and had it upgraded to E6 configuration at Desert Ordnance.  The nice part about it is that they totally rebuilt the receiver as part of the upgrade so everything but the sheet metal channel with the serial number on it is brand new.  I still have the option or running it in "old school" Vietnam configuration, as it takes about ten minutes to totally strip it down and replace the parts with either the VN "pig" parts or the modern E6 sexiness.

 

My only bitch is with the ejection pattern.  As one of those damn lefties, I get pummeled on my right shoulder with the brass, but since several of my other guns do the same thing I'm kind of used to it.  I may try to whip up a shell deflector for it.

 Guess you need to shoot right handed ?!?  I am a lefty, but shoot the guns either way, depending on tactical need..  the M249 is really painful to shoot left handed - as the brass will leave bloody welt on bare skin. I have several experieinces in MOUT conditions where I had to shoot Left handed, and my right arm actually needed medical attention from the ejected brass .    there has to be a simple way to make a brass deflector. 


  • 0

#11 DINK

DINK

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 207 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 05 December 2015 - 09:04 AM

Yes, there should be.  There are two (or sometimes three) holes jest behind the ejection port that are countersunk on the inside and would be perfect for mounting a deflector.  I have no idea why they are there and the few times I have asked around, nobody seemed to know.

 

The 60 can be very considerate of lefties, depending on how it is set up.  When I first got my gun I shot it in old-school mode and the brass was ejected around 4 o'clock, which put it away from my body parts.  When it came back from the conversion, I was getting smacked in the chin with brass!  I tried taking the new multi-strand ejector spring out and replacing it with an older single-strand ejector spring and that moved the ejection pattern back out to 5 o'clock, which put the brass into my shoulder.  I suspect some combination of ejector and recoil springs will move the ejection back out to 4 o'clock, but the newer-style gas system may have something to do with it also.

 

I plan to experiment further and also start thinking about a deflector design.


  • 0

#12 Black River Militaria CII

Black River Militaria CII

    Industry Expert

  • Regular Group
  • 592 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 05 December 2015 - 06:42 PM

I would add that it is helpful to remember that all registered M60s, regardless of maker, have been in the hands of recreational shooters at the latest May 18, 1986, the last day to register a remanufactured MG. That is 28 years ago and there is not a remanufactured 60 out there that has not been brought up to reliable shooting standard, regardless of its condition when leaving its manufacturer. I have repaired quite a few of them. The point being that reman 60s are a better buy for a rcreational owner//shooter who plans on shooting it a lot. A reman 60 allows you to do any repairs on it that you like during your possession of it without damaging its value. On the other hand, I disagree with the above poster that shooting a factory vintage registered 60 does not affect its value. It definitely does, and more so if it is is in pristine condition when purchased. There are quite a few virtually new registered Saco and other iterations of the SACO manufacturing name, and it is not possible to shoot these guns a lot over time without scarring the finish on receiver and other parts, and especially the topcover, which has a very fragile finish on the metal. A scarred original 60 cannot be returned to pristine original condition ever again, despite any attempt with new parts, top covers, feedtrays, and other exposed parts, and especially the receiver finish. These command a big prices simply because they are collector guns, not shoot guns.
The current valuation of reman 60s is about $27.5k and up and they ar soften available in the public domain. As noted vintage 60s will cost a lot more.
If originality is of interest to you, make sure if you buy an original vintage 60 that is hasn't been shot a lot and then "restored" and presented as a "collector" grade gun. They are out there now due to the increased value.
I see a lot of "collector" MGs in my business, and more and more I see formerly pristine, real collector quality MGs that the owners were sure they could shoot and not damage the finishes. Doesn't work out that way, unless the use of the gun is extremely limited.
Personally, I dislike seeing vintage collector MGs shot as if they were shooter grade guns. Having attended shoots since the late seventies and watched beautiful, original MGs beat up on the range simply because they were inexpensive, relatively speaking, more were available cheaply and the owners were not concerned about preserving them. The attitude that there were plenty around prevailed. Eventually, pre-Mays began to replace the collector grade MGs in the role of beaters, and then the less quality condition MGs, until the post-May samples replaced those.
My business is repair and preservation of MGs, so I am biased, but in the long run we all need to preserve vintage, original conditions MGs so those who follow us will be able to see what the originals were like and not just by having to go to a museum. Hopefully these collector MGs will remain in private hands so they can be appreciated by hands on experience and not through the glass of a museum.
FWIW
  • 0