Lancer Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Well guys the big day came a bit quicker than I expected. The paperwork was sent to the BATF on May 17. Was approved on July 1 and the BBT brought my baby home on the 14th. By my count that’s 58 days on my first NFA transfer, I’m sure not complaining. It’s nothing rare but it’s mine. From reading past posts, several of you have similar guns. Here’s what I got. 1928ac, with US ground off, serial # is AO1509XX x, matching number frame minus the x at the end (does this have significance?), paddle selectors, knurled actuator, stamped L sight and smooth barrel. It also has a kind of neat temper line running across the receiver that can only be seen under certain lighting conditions. Do all Tommies have this? I’ve never noticed it before. I’m not sure if it has been refinished or not. It could be Dulite or parkerized, not sure I would know the difference. Like Phil’s gun it appears to not have any kind of military markings. Gun is supposedly a former P.D. gun and has a P.D sticker on it. I’m going to try to verify this. I believe that it is. I would rate its condition as good to very good. I plan to shoot this gun regularly but not to run huge amounts of ammo through it. Should I perhaps put another barrel on it to preserve the original? How can I tell if it is the original? Is there anything I should look for before I fire it to be sure it is safe? I would appreciate any feedback you guys can give me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIONHART Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Since your not planning on shooting a lot of ammo through it, I see no reason why you should change out the Barrel. Though perhaps you should invest in another one, and obtain a complete set of spare parts X 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondAmend Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Congratulations! Rat-tat-tat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leid Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Lancer, Most of the U.S. 28A1s went thru some sort of rebuild sometime in their career. The barrel on your TSMG has probably been changed at some point already. But see if you can locate an AO '28A1 parts kit for spares, maybe at Ohio Ordnance Works. IMA had one AO '28A1 kit for sale several months ago, but most all their kits are of Savage manufacture. Pick up your spares now. Then you can enjoy shooting it without fear of damaging parts. As long as the frame and receiver are kept in good shape, everything else is replaceable. Good luck & Congratulations! Carey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Congratulations! Another TSMG in circulation. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif I'll add my $.02 as well. Lionhart and leid give sound advice. Stock up on those spare parts while they are still available and then shoot that puppy as much as you like. 58 days ain't bad at all. Enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 We've got to have some pictures!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Congratulations on your new gun. Regarding your inquiries, the configuration of your gun (US ground off, C stamped after A, smooth barrel and stamped "L" sight) is consistent with the guns sold to police agencies at the end of and post WWII. Frank Iannamico's theory on this is that after production of the 1928 ceased in late 1942 or early 1943 Auto-Ordnance had many overruns and spare parts left. He believes, and I agree, that many of the police department guns were assembled from spare parts. This accounts for the lack of military proofs, the X stamped after the serial number (sometimes also on the grip frame) and the ground off US and A1 designation to distinguish it from a military gun. There was considerable discussion several months ago regarding the stamped on "C" in place of the "1." One theory is that it is a throwback to the older Colt gun designation of A (no compensator) and AC (compensator). I have also heard that it may have indicated a commercial sale gun for law enforcement, again, to distinguish it from military issue. Rest assured that the barrel is probably original issue to the gun as is the "L" sight. The police sales guns all seem to be AO guns, I don't believe anyone has seen a Savage made gun with the X after the serial number and the US and 1 ground off. These guns usually have higher serial numbers, I have observed one in the *77,000 range with the X on both the receiver and the grip frame, although the gun I observed had obviously been rebuilt because it had a green parkerizing and an early 2nd model Colt compensator with a finned barrel. It was a Federal Law Enforcement gun that had a variety of mixed parts. Generally most of the guns of the type you acquired have the Dulite finish, smooth barrels and "L" sights because they were made from late production parts, probably after 1928 production ceased. Frank's book can explain it better than I have. Good luck with it, shoot it in good health! * Whoops! Read my post again and believe I made a mistake on the serial number range. Should have read 100,000 range. Will get it checked for certain and repost the correct number. Sorry for any confusion. * I shouldn't try to rely on memory in my old age. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif The correct serial number is 77,098X. Actually I thought it was a six digit serial number when I saw the gun a few weeks ago. The five digit serial number surprised me. If I remember correctly, others have posted here having 1928AC guns and they are for the most part over the 100,000 serial number range. I think........ http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/dry.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNKen Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Pics!! Pics!! And what are the PD markings????? Sounds like the Mobile PD gun I have. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted July 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Everyone, thanks for all your comments. I going to the gun show in Beria, Ohio on Sat. and going to keep my eyes open for any A.O. parts. Ken, unfortunately my gun doesn't have the distinctive P.D. marking that yours has. What it has is a "Propery of" adhesive sticker attached to the stock. It looks to be authentic and I have no reason to doubt that it is but I still would like to verify this. The gun came with two stocks. A previous owner bought the second stock so as to preserve the sticker on the original stock. I'll try to take some pics this weekend and post them if I can figure out how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
full auto 45 Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Lancer, send me the pix and I'll post them for you. I may use one or two on my site also for the posting fee! If that's ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted July 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 QUOTE (full auto 45 @ Jul 15 2004, 11:01 PM) Lancer, send me the pix and I'll post them for you. I may use one or two on my site also for the posting fee! If that's ok. Thanks Mike. I'll send them to you as soon as I have a chance to take some pics. I'm not that good of a photog, but your welcome to use anything I send you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21 smoker Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Lancer...Congrats!!!....That is a very interesting gun...pics are a must....just to add to what Carey said in this post...when I called IMA to order a 28 kit...they said all the kits were AO,not Savage,so if you try them please post what you get..TIA, http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNKen Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 The Mobile PD gun is 1106 x, obviously manufactured fairly close in time. PhilOrd's comments prompted me to make a follow up call to the Mobile PD to see if they had uncovered anything on my gun. Unfortunately, the old regiem has retired or passed on. The property officer did refer me to their "ATF representative" but she was out. I am wondering if Mobile would give me a power of attorney or a release to obtain info on the gun directly from ATF. Let's see what the ATF rep says!! Any other thoughts would be appreciated on how to get info. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 PhilOhio, If I am misrepresenting my conversation regarding this issue with Frank Iannamico, than I stand corrected and apologize to Frank for quoting him incorrectly. My conversation with him had to do with a gun he owned of the same type and the speculation as to why there were no military acceptance/proof marks. I believe he told me he thought that this variation of the 1928 Model may have been assembled from parts after regular production of the 1928 ceased. I thought that was a pretty good explanation and didn't mean to imply that there weren't any guns that were sold directly to law enforcement agencies during WWII. Certainly they had to fill orders as they came in for police and civillain sales. The only exception I take with your position on your gun is your reference that it was pulled from the assembly line for direct sale to the police agency that owned it. On previous posts you have speculated that this was probably in 1943. If we are to believe the accepted references available that 1928 production ceased at or near the end of 1942 then I think it makes more sense to believe that guns sold to law enforcement near the end of and post WWII were assembled from existing parts. In fact, all guns were assembled from existing parts during production. I certainly wasn't implying that being assembled from parts, if that is in fact the case with the 1928AC guns, makes them any less desirable. In fact, I think they are an interesting variation and would love to own one. I am partial to the AO made guns, anyway. There is certainly some explanation why the guns had the US ground off, X's after the serial numbers and a C stamped in place of the 1. I don't profess to have the answer, but they weren't manufactured like that and it's curious that they all seem to be AO guns. Savage switched over production to the M1 series in 1942 and ceased production altogether in 1944. Russell Maguire didn't sell the assets of the company until, what...1947? That leaves an approximately three year period where the owners of the gun and patents, Auto-Ordnance, could have assembled guns for law enforcement and commercial sales with existing spare parts. Once the M1/M1A1 was standardized, the 1928 became limited standard, so it would seem to me that most spare parts available near the end of the war would probably have been earmarked for government rebuilding programs to repair or rebuild the 1928 Models still in military use. Once the war was over the leftover parts wouldn't have been in as much demand by the military. I would venture to guess that there weren't any M1 Models sold directly to law enforcement during production between 1942 and 1944. The ones that came to law enforcement were either released by the government as surplus in the post war era or were imported from overseas in the late forties or early fifties. I just think this scenario makes the most sense to explain the 1928AC variation of the Thompson, but it is strictly my opinion, coupled with conversations from other collectors. I don't have any other form of proof to offer. I was attempting to assist the original poster in trying to reference the time frame when his gun was made and the existence of similar guns sold to law enforcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted July 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Guys, very interesting reading. Guns are like beautiful women, they always seem a bit more interesting when they have a bit of mystery to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snipershot1944 Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Sometimes they are both kind of hard to field strip too! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wackiforkhaki Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 I think this was the gun on autoweapons website. @ $17,500 was asking price. Good looking gun! Nice even finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondAmend Posted July 17, 2004 Report Share Posted July 17, 2004 (edited) To add some information/confusion/controversy: The TSMG I have is Savage #S-340193 which I believe puts it in the October/November, 1941 build contract. It has horizontal front grip, finned barrel, gen 4 comp, Lyman ladder sight, non-cross stock, knurled actuator, paddle, non-checked selector and safety. Frame number matches receiver. It has no military proofs. The "U.S." and the "A1" were both buffed down but are faintly visible under the Du-lite finish. Since the "circled GEG" mark is bright through the Du-Lite, I believe the finish to be original. The Form 4 is for a "Model 1928". The "A1" is gone, not converted to "AC". It came with a police ID hang tag which is for "M.S.P.D." I have a FOIA request in process but I doubt that any further light will be shed. EDIT: Lo and behold, the response to the FOIA request for the '28 Savage came in yesterday's mail. Fourteen pages of redacted transfer information (two are blanks). All it contained of interest was a redacted ATF Form 4467 showing the gun was first registered in 1968 to a police agency. No way to track down which one or when they acquired the gun, etc. Edited July 18, 2004 by SecondAmend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted July 17, 2004 Report Share Posted July 17, 2004 PhilOhio, I agree with your assessment. Finding some original documentation from law enforcement agencies would certainly be interesting and clear up some of the speculation regarding these guns. Being a former law enforcement officer, I am particularly interested in this variation of the Thompson. I am presently attempting to have a colleague locate and send to me some documentation on a similar gun I examined a few weeks ago. I don't know what the paperwork involves but it pertains to some Federal Law Enforcement guns that were located several years ago. It may be nothing of value concerning our recent posts or it may have some information of interest. I'll let you know what I find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimFromFL Posted July 19, 2004 Report Share Posted July 19, 2004 QUOTE (Lancer @ Jul 15 2004, 05:10 PM) Well guys the big day came a bit quicker than I expected. The paperwork was sent to the BATF on May 17. Was approved on July 1 and the BBT brought my baby home on the 14th. So, who do you know at ATF? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/dry.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/dry.gif I have a Form STILL pending since Apr 26th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted July 19, 2004 Report Share Posted July 19, 2004 Remember that Roger Cox stipulated that he knew of another 200 Colt TSMG's in police departments around the country, but he either didn't get the chance to examine them and record their serial numbers, or they asked him not to reveal the fact that they did have a TSMG in their arsenals. No doubt a fair amount of the PD TSMG's that were recently "discovered" were some of the weapons Cox already located, but couldn't document. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted July 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2004 QUOTE (JimFromFL @ Jul 18 2004, 08:28 PM) So, who do you know at ATF? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/dry.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/dry.gif I have a Form STILL pending since Apr 26th. Jim, I feel your pain. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/sad.gif Hey, what can I say. Just lucky I guess. Dawn Henson approved the form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blishblock Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Just my 2 cents worth. I acquired AO 38,---X from the Delaware State Police in the early 1980's It came with 3 other AO guns in the AO150---Xrange. US is ground off and C stamped over the 1. No military insp marks visible. All guns matched upper and lower. Smooth bbls with comps. and L rear sights without protective sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted July 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Jul 19 2004, 11:02 PM) Beautiful gun, but I spotted something unusual. Is it my imagination, or is the "L" rear sight brazed on rather than riveted? I can't see rivet heads. And I think this one has been through arsenal rebuild, since the smooth barrel looks to be parked, rather than blued. Drum looks like it is in excellent shape, too. Overall, a very nice gun. The sight is riveted. They're flush to the sight and don't show in the pic. The barrel does appear to be parked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamm Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Lancer, That is sooooo nice! I love the park smooth barrel with a vertical grip. Real nice combo and clean as a whistle. Congrats, Zamm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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