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Transferring an AOW to a heir question


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Working with a guy on a couple Handy Guns. His uncle registered them in the early 1960's

He passed and gave them to his brother

No forms were filed.

The brother died and gave them to his son (who I am dealing with)

What's the simplest way to get these transferred to the son and eventually me?

Should he send the ATF a letter outlining what I said with copies of the original forms?

He wants to throw them in a lake and be done with them.

I'm trying to prevent that

Thanks

Brian

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First, the current possessor is illegally in possession of the guns. They are not registered to him. I suspect he knows that it is illegal for him to have them. The executor of the uncle's estate should be located and asked if the registration paperwork exists. The uncle's living relatives can be asked also. It would be a big help to have the paperwork, but it is not essential since you say that the guns were registered.

If the executor can be located and engaged to help, he/she will have the legal authority to sign the transfer paperwork for the guns out of the name of the deceased as property of the estate.

The executor will know the laws for handling the property of the estate even though years have passed or an estate lawyer can be retained to help.

In the absence of the executor and paperwork you have a couple positive points: you know the name of the current registrant, the uncle, and you believe with good reason that the guns are registered, and there is a direct family relationship to the deceased so a succession of legitimate inheritance can be inferred. ATF has been helpful in resolving transfer issues out of estates when there is a known line of inheritance that can justify allowing a possible benefactor signing the paperwork. This is a speculative venture though and it is up to ATF to determine if they would allow that.

The single determining issue is finding a person who has the legal authority to sign the transfer application out of the uncles name.

If the paperwork is not available and the executor cannot be found or will not help, then a lawyer will be needed with experience in dealing with ATF/NFA to present the son's case to ATF that the guns are registered and that a person from the family needs to be assigned to sign the transfer.

The value of the guns can easily be exceeded by the cost of such a venture handled by a lawyer so that needs to be considered.

Another option is to alter the guns so that they are no longer under the control of ATF. As smoothbore pistols they are AOWs. A way around that is the have the bores lightly rifled by an experienced gunsmith who has the equipment and expertise to do it. Once the bores are rifled the guns are pistols and not AOW's and are no longer controlled by NFA regulations. They can be legally possessed by anyone who is not prohibited from possessing a firearm.

Another option is to remove the barrels from the receivers. When this is done, then the receivers are no longer considered a controlled firearm or a firearm at all. Here is where it gets a bit strange with the laws. The original barrels cannot be used with the receivers from which they were removed. However, a different barrel from another gun can be assembled to the receivers to manufacture a 'new" firearm, and then this new gun registered on a Form 1 as an AOW. The form 1 is submitted to ATF and when the approved copy is returned to the person filing the application, the barrels can be assembled to the receivers. Swapping out the barrels and rendering the receivers as non-guns and then "manufacturing" a "new" firearm eliminates the appearance of the person having been in possession of an illegal unregistered NFA weapon. The laws prohibit an individual from registering an existing unregistered NFA weapon, but, except for MG, individuals can register other NFA controlled weapons such as short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, various AOWs, etc.

FWIW

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Thank you Bob.

These are fairly generic 12" .410 Handy Guns but I'd hate to see them destroyed.

The original forms exist, proving the were legally registered to the deceased uncle.

His brother inherited the guns and was the executor of the estate

The brother that inherited the guns is now deceased as well.

The son has the guns now and is the executor of his fathers estate.

I've advised him to remove the barrels and keep them at a different location.

 

He sent the ATF an email and got this response :

"Good afternoon,

To be able to sell the NFA firearms you may complete an ATF Form 4 for each one. You will be signing on behalf of the deceased so you will have to attach proof of executorship as well as the death certificate with the forms. If you wish to keep them yourself you would use the ATF Form 5. "

 

He thinks we can fill out a form 4 from the deceased uncle to myself and get the transfer approved

I remain dubious.

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The guns are still in the name of the uncle, correct? They can transfer directly to you on taxed F4s from the uncle IF ATF will approve the signature of the nephew on the transfer applications. Of course, the nephew, is NOT the executor of the uncles's estate so ATF will have to approve of his eligibility to sign the forms. However, if the nephew can prove that the brother was the legal beneficiary of the guns and the legal owner though not the registrant, I suspect ATF would accept the nephew's signature on F4s, as the executor for his father, for transfer from the uncle's estate.

Have the son call ATF/NFA and ask for Ted Clutter who is a long time specialist and very good. It may take some time to reach him but he is your man. Ask specifically if the nephew, as executor of his father's estate can sign the F4s transferring the AOWs out of the uncle's estate and what affidavits he will need to include with the F4s confirming that he has ATF's approval. He may be required to write another letter detailing his question. FWIW

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  • 5 months later...

The owner decided that he didn't want to track down death certificates and such

 

I bought both guns (I had to in order to get the .22 with the wire stock) and the barrels are on the way to Oregon to be rifled

 

The receivers are in my safe. Once the barrels come back I'll have them removed from the registry.

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nothing is ever removed from the registry. When you are done the guns no longer meet NFA definitions/ taxable status and since you have no connection with what is on the current registration it's unlikely you'd even be a footnote. Many registrations, specifically on "combination" firearms have just died, since once the configuration is no longer a taxable one, the registration is meaningless and registration lives on to eternity for a firearm configuration that no longer exists. There's no need to notify anyone that you posses something that no one knows you have, in a configuration that does not require notification or tax payment to possess.

I have a couple registered items that have never actually been made 5-10 years old that may never exist at this point. Those will be in the registry forever in my name, but the stamps are here just in case I get around to it. HTH

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nothing is ever removed from the registry. When you are done the guns no longer meet NFA definitions/ taxable status and since you have no connection with what is on the current registration it's unlikely you'd even be a footnote. Many registrations, specifically on "combination" firearms have just died, since once the configuration is no longer a taxable one, the registration is meaningless and registration lives on to eternity for a firearm configuration that no longer exists. There's no need to notify anyone that you posses something that no one knows you have, in a configuration that does not require notification or tax payment to possess.

I have a couple registered items that have never actually been made 5-10 years old that may never exist at this point. Those will be in the registry forever in my name, but the stamps are here just in case I get around to it. HTH

 

 

OK, thanks. I wrote a letter to remove my SBR years ago when I put on a 16" upper and sold it

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