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Really Weird Question About Post Sample MG's


Haenelistklasse
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So yesterday I went to a local gun show and there is an SOT/FFL dealer there selling FOUR MP34's. They all have pretty good use on them and he is asking $4500 each. He also rents these same guns at his gun shop/range locally for $29/mag. My question is what is ATF's position on bringing these guns back to life and renting them out? Do they frown upon this? Or do they tolerate it? I thought post samples were only for law enforcement/research and development.demonstrations, etc. Just curious...I have also been to Batllefield Vegas and I am failry certain most if not all there guns must also be post samples.

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As long as the requirement to do a demo is satisfied or appears to have been done or might be done, etc, etc the SOT can use the posties as he sees fit. Often the demo isn't even done. ATF has been fully aware of the various uses of posties practically from the git go. Restrictions of various sorts have been added since the original rule was implemented post May 19, 1986. Really much tighter now compared to then mostly due to abuses. However, in an extremely rare fit of benevolent good sense, some years back, ATF decided to allow two types of FFL/SOTs to transfer posties into their inventory without a PD demo letter, which dramatically and quickly increased the value of posties on the market. This was allegedly in response to many SOTs keeping their posties after dropping the licenses. I guess some ATF honcho understood that easing transfer and at the same time making them more valuable would keep them in the hands of legitimate FFL/SOTs. Seems to have worked......FWIW

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The only valid reasons to mfg a post sample MG are as noted below.

Anything built needs to be built for sale. R&D, testing, rental, etc. are not valid mfg reasons

as noted below.

 

ATF NFA Handbook
7.6.2 Manufacture of machineguns solely for purposes of testing. The manufacture of machineguns solely for testing or research purposes is not recognized as a legitimate exception to the ban on possession or transfer of firearms under 18 U.S.C. 922(o). As previously stated, manufacturers may only manufacture machineguns on or after May 19, 1986 and stockpile the same if they are manufactured and held for sale to Federal or State agencies, for distribution as “sales samples,” or for exportation.

Edited by mattnh
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Well, this issue has been through the wringer countless times since May 19, 1986 and ATF's enforcement must have left a trail of successful prosecutions explicitly for violating the "use" prescription of 07/02 manufactured posties which, if true, has had absolutely no damping effect on the multitude of 07/02s and 01/03s who routinely do all sorts of things with their posties outside the scope of "only".
The enforced aspect of posties is in the transfer process requirements for a recipient SOT who must provide a valid letter from a PD or official agency eligible to possess posties, requesting a demonstration for "possible" future purchases by his department. Note that purchase is not "required", a telling distinction. An SOT is not "required" to sell the posties. A rule of thumb with regulations is that if the regulation does not explicitly prohibit a particular behavior, action, object, etc, etc then for all practical purposes the behavior, etc, etc is not held to be within the prohibition of regulation. This issue, in regard to ATF enforcement, reaches the point of diminishing returns mighty quickly.
ATF/NFA's world of legal codes and regulations is full of paradoxes, inconsistencies, contradictions and you name it. A registered sideplate is legally a firearm, specifically a machine gun, right? Start there with the strict application of logic. Use of posties is not worth the time arguing about it in my opinion. Over and out.FWIW

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I thought the questions was "what is ATF's position on bringing these guns back to life and renting them out"

 

Mfg is one issue

Renting is another issue

 

Mfg post-sample for purpose of possible sale - OK

Mfg post-sample for sole purpose of rental - NOT OK

 

Once legally mfg, any legal use is fine (e.g. hang on wall, rental, demo for sale, transfer to another dealer with demo letter, sale to agency, etc...)

 

My comments had nothing to do with the use of legally mfg posties only with stated purpose required for their mfg.

 

 

Note that in the original question it was noted that the post-sample guns were for sale.

Seems like that clearly fits the def of mfg for a legal purpose...

Edited by mattnh
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Yes, and the issue is the same whether imported or manufactured. There is no functional difference between them so they should both be treated in an identical.

Words mean something. It does not explicitly prohibit any other use of posties or explocity say it is "illegal". The word used is "may". Putting "only" with it is not an explicit prohibition. If ATF desired that posties not be used for any other purpose than sales samples and any other use was stated to be "illegal" then they would have explicitly prohibited any other use than demonstrations. There would be archives of court actions against such illegal use, in my opinion, and the practice would probably not have continued after a few busts and convictions.
Of course SOTs would then charge a fee to any person interested in a "demonstration", advertise it as such and continue to do whqt they are already doing.

Another example is that Form 5s "may" be used to temporarily transfer a registered MG to a gunsmith. And "may not".

I have built many posties and transferred them on letters for the SOTs to use as they wish and most of the time it is for rentals or amusement. Again, ATF has been fully aware of the uses of posties for many, many years so what is the problem?

 

I fail to understand your motive for your post apparently, but I guess you are only pointing it out. If you are warning 07/02s not to rent posties, because you believe it is illegal and they are breaking the law, you are way too late to the party. However, the reality is that SOTs have rented posties for years and years so making the claim that it is illegal, even in the light of the fact that the practice is not explicitly stated to be illegal, seems to be making a rule where there is none.
My speculation is that ATF's always busy lawyers understood that trying to enforce use by statute would be impossible, a waste of money, manpower and resources, and probably challenged in court. If the statue allows import and manufacture of MGs under the exemption, the transfer requirement is enough of an enforceable hurdle to possession. They couldn't even enforce the legal requirement that an SOT must transfer out his inventory of posties before giving up his SOT so they had to change the law. FWIW

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As a data point, in 30 years of compliance audits, I have never been asked why I made anything. I have taken inspectors out in the yard to shoot stuff after they were "off the clock" . Lately it seems BATF is more concerned with the accuracy of THEIR records, since there always seems to be a discrepancy between their official record printout and the reality of what I have on hand, transferred and papered. None of it dealing with post sample - mostly with transferables that they cannot seem to keep straight. It is always good to understand the rules, but the post sample thing has been sorted out for a while.....

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