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Form 4 Error for Thompson


gk1040
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I've really enjoyed this forum as a newer member. I have learned so much.

 

I ran into an interesting to me Form 4 issue today. My Form 4 for a Colt Thompson I purchased came back today with some errors. The ATF agent wants me to correct box 13 on the second page where it asks for the necessity of possession. I had originally entered "ANY LAWFUL PURPOSE." The agent wants me to cross that out and replace it with "IN ACCORDANCE WITH WI941.26." WI941.26 is a Wisconsin state statute having to do with Machine Guns (I'm located in WI).

 

I've completed another machine gun transfer this past year using the "ANY LAWFUL PURPOSE" and the agents did not reject the forms. Additionally, I have completed a couple transfers through Silencershop for various suppressors and they state on their stock forms "INVESTMENT AND ALL OTHER LAWFUL PUPOSES." None of them came back with errors.

 

Should I be filling out my Form 4's differently going forward or is this just odd?

 

Thanks

gk1040

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Never heard of that happening before. Must be because of the Wisconsin issue. What does the state statute say?

 

I've heard of people putting things like "to hunt zombies" or something similar without any question every being raised.

 

"Any Lawful Purpose" seems kind of broad to me (which maybe triggered this review) whereas "For collection and any other lawful purpose" seems more appropriate.

 

I think all you can do of course is change it as requested.

 

Robert

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ATF his apparently decided that proof of compliance with all state requirements and other info now be included with or on the forms. In the last three months I have received three error letters asking for copies of the transferees state MG license in two cases (MA) and proof of the purchase of the MG for the third. Proof of purchase was buyers receipt, copy of check, etc for purchase. ATFs request for proof of purchase is nonsensical and appears to me to be a straw purchase concern on their part, but it has to be rare to never that the person who paid for the MG is not the transferee.

In the above case, just do as they ask, and in future transfers, continue to clues that info.

Edited by Black River Militaria CII
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That has been the norm for WI transfers for quite some time and is machine gun specific as the statute states and not necessary for suppressors or other NFA items. Follow the instructions on the corrections letter and it should go through. "All lawful purposes" or similar language will no longer get MG transfers approved in WI as of a while ago . I assume you got a signature from LE?

Edited by johnsonlmg41
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ive had a few go through with ''all lawful purposes'' but then one got called out and i had to change it to the long language youve got...ever since i just use that language and no issues....your in WI, its all goofed up here with the law letter, etc....and there's no way to fix it

 

you did get a law letter correct?

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In my past transfers, I always got the law letter mostly because I needed to go get it anyways to do the transfer pre-41-F. When I saw your post this morning, my stomach just about dropped out of me. I did not get the law letter yet. I called a lawyer today to get some advice. He said the ATF should have kicked back the transfer for that reason alone. He suggested I get the law letter and keep it on file as it's a state issue anyways.

 

I feel very dumb that I missed this, but also glad I posted this as I would have probably not thought about it until my next machinegun transfer. Thank-you.

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There exists the possibility that the multi page letter I wrote to the AG several months back may have made some inroads as far as the signature and a LE note go? It may be that things have been put back to a status 3-4 years ago where a "LE" note/ permission was not required, nor any of the 941.26 language. I have not gotten a direct response yet to my letter, but I have a couple more transfers underway that might also tell the tale? I effectively asked for several scenarios including a change in the statute, however that obviously would take some time.

What I have not gotten is a response either way, so perhaps changes are under consideration. I find that often a "go pound sand" response is generally pretty swift, whereas this has been 90+ days. The insanity exists in the fact that for rifle caliber firearms you don't need a note which is but one of the inconsistencies I spelled out. HTH

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if you get a law letter ask for a ''generic'' one....ive gotten 7 law letters....luckily 1 was generic and not tied to a gun and serial #....so now i dont have to ask/beg the sheriff for yet another letter...i just photo copy what i have and send it in....ive heard some are not sending the letters and going through anyways...this issue may be resolving itself.....the legislature will do nothing on this issue...why would they?.....i think its best just to leave it alone...maybe it will just go away or has already.....do NOT call the ATF to discuss this issue..that could cause neg. effects from my understanding....best if most of the inspectors dont know or care about this WI law

 

only ONE form 4 has been kicked back of mine requiring anything besides FOR ALL LAWFUL PURPOSES......dont know how many inspectors they have? but calling the atf to help educate all of them to this stupid WI law would be a negative thing....not saying your doing that...just warning against it....

 

id leave the issue alone...if they ask for the letter or different text...just do it and move on....try sending in your next form 4 without it and see if a different inspector lets it go

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Unfortunately the lackadaisical attitude you and everyone else in the WI C3 community seems to have is exactly why you're in this mess in the first place. Issues don't resolve themselves, effort has to be put forward to make things happen or be corrected. All examiners doing WI transfers have guidelines set forth by the legal staff at ATF that they follow based on interpretation of state statutes discussed with the state AG, so there is cooperation between the agencies. Things don't happen by accident or coincidence. Calling actually does not get you anywhere since you never get to speak with the people writing the guidelines for the procedures to be followed for WI NFA MG transfers.

 

None of this has much to do with ATF, it's all a problem on the state level which is where it needed to be fixed. I've done work arounds for nearly 15 years, but they have been somewhat inconvenient and they've morphed in that time to policy changes made by newer AG's. Things do not change without a lot of effort, just ask the guys in MI and Kansas who've made major changes to their NFA laws. Maybe you remember when there was no concealed carry in WI? None of that changed by accident. What effort have you or anyone you know put forth to make change happen? Not coming down on you personally since you are effectively a newbie, but there are many others in it for a long time that haven't done a thing and I'm sort of venting because what you have stated has been their position for decades and thus why WI is such an anti gun socialist paradise.

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do you think conceal carry and making legal machine gun ownership are the same issue? 99.999% of voters would disagree with you...i dont see scott Walker bragging how he fixed the machine gun laws in WI for the 100 people that own them here

 

my understanding (which is vague) of how this all started is because someone called the ATF asking for verification on the WI law...things were at a point where no law letter was needed at one point...from what ive heard this is true again!!!....some are getting bye w/o the law letter...some are not....

 

do what you wish....if it helps, great....but if this takes legislative action to correct itself i think its a dream....there wil never be pro machine gun anything passed in WI

 

 

WI is F'd up.....always will be....just be glad we arent IL

 

Ive got my last few FA's working there way through the system...when they are complete im done with it....i have yet to hear if the Sheriff of Waukesha has signed off anymore in the past 4+ months.......might be that he is done

Edited by huggytree
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You have to elect in the right people. Several years back, our AG opened up our state to all transferrables by clarifying Michigan law as we used to be just C&R. This didnt take votes. It takes people like our formal AG Mike Cox and his supporters!

 

Elected officials do make changes even if the change seems unpopular. Truth is, most people bitch and whine today, the few that actually take action, make changes.

 

Ron

Edited by ron_brock
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we will see if it is so easy here in WI........something to consider is if the AG is progun or progun enough....getting into issues like this could go the opposite way just as easily...there are not many pro machine gun people in this world...few hundred in WI, maybe 10,000 nation wide (pure guess)......i dont see why anyone would give a darn about us at all to do anything....who cares if 10 people arent happy this year because of a difficult transfer of a MACHINE GUN.....not that i feel this way, but im a deplorable and my ideas are in the vast minority

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There are more MG owners than gay wedded couples, yet they were able to change the rules and even definitions of what a gender is? All because they were legislatively active, not because everyone was "for it".

I've met with the AG on two occasions many years ago. He's a sharp guy, good on details, and hopefully will recognize the contradictory issues in state statue I referenced and help to fix them and the messes created by previous legislators and AG's.

 

Whether or not a letter/permit is/was needed had changed at least 4 times that I am aware of back to the 70's including what I've seen as an actual permit form. Currently (unless it has changed by my letter) certain MG's still require either a signature and the correct wording or a separate letter/permit to transfer. While things can slip through the cracks in error, I've not seen it happen. I am satisfied that I made an actual effort and if it works, great less hassle for me and everyone else, if not I've side stepped it anyhow. If you guys had a group, ponied up cash, and made a concentrated effort it would be pretty easy to change IMO especially in the current political climate. Or you can wait for another Jim Doyle, on the other hand 10K to him got you pretty much anything you asked for?

 

Didn't you say you were done like 4 guns ago?

10 years ago I though I would slow down, but that just hasn't happened?

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yes i said i was done 4 guns ago...maybe 5...probably 5....and im saying it again now....the most stupid part of this law is it doesnt pertain to rifle calibers. but thats WI

 

gay people have the support of 51%+ of the masses to get married....machine gun owners have -99.999% of the support of the masses

 

i hope you get what you want......i dont know much about this current AG...the last one did almost nothing about anything....you'd need a very pro gun guy and a true 2nd amendment believer...if you have that you will get what you want....doesnt mean the next AG will change the interpretation back again.....the next Jim Doyle will be here eventually....

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even a dealer need that stupid letter to transfer in a machine gun....my dealer had an issue on my latest transfer over their law letter....i have transferred in 8 guns now through them and i do not believe they needed that letter before...or if so maybe once.....just depends on which atf person is doing the transfer..this was a E-File...once the letter was submitted the form was approved in 6 hours

 

the WI stupidity is bigger than i thought....

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To bring this post full circle. I did receive my law letter today from my local chief. I did get a generic one this time (thanks for the advice). So hopefully I can use this letter going forward.

What is interesting about this whole process is that I have had a few MG purchases this year (all Thompsons). I did not send in the law letter on any of them. One is already approved. One got kicked back but never requested the law letter (hence why I posted this), and others have been purchased not too long ago so I'm still in waiting mode. Maybe the rules are changing? Maybe the luck of the draw on the agent processing the forms. I have the letter now and I'm good to go, so I have no stress about the issue now.

 

As far as advocacy, I can see everyone's points. I've considered contacting my local representative to discuss this, but both my state representatives (house and senate) are anti-gun. I'm afraid if I bring up anything about MG's that they will freak and things will go sideways for us. I've been very hesitant to bring up any MG legislation because people tend to get very leery if uneducated about the guns. It would be the best case scenario if the AG could clarify the Wisconsin law to stipulate that if the ATF approves you, then you are good to go. This would involve no politicians maybe...

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is what Ive been told. That they are not all catching the law letter. Or dont care

 

Ive used the same letter now for 4 guns. So I hope it works. My letter has no date or specific anything. Just that i can own a machine gun

 

Congrats on obtaining your letter. Whats with collecting only Thompsons ???

Edited by huggytree
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I've been on a Thompson roll this year. Not sure why. I've been looking at other guns, but couldn't get any deals done. I'm still relatively new to machine gun buying so I'm still learning and only stepping my toe into guns I think know the market on.

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  • 5 months later...

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