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Gangster Gun, Serial # Revealed !


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Thanks Chuck-

Talked to Bill this morning, he said about the same, who knows why they did that, maybe law or something. New Fed laws etc.

 

Bill's thought's were, this could be the Nelson Thompson from the Barrington battle, just a thought. I asked about the one recovered for evidence, he didn't remember, could of been someone else.

If in fact, this were to be the Thompson used by Nelson in the famous shoot-out , it would be an extreme piece of gangster history.

 

The phase II of CC's search may be more interesting then the first.

 

 

 

OCM

 

Wouldn't the FBI have ballistic data on the gun(s) used against Hollis and Cowley at the Battle, which might point to this Thompson?

 

Rob

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Rob,

 

Good point! Yes, they should and probably compared several recovered Thompsons back when the shoot- out occurred. That is why I believe that if the FBI ever had 5487 in their possession they would never have released it to anyone, unless there was some colossal oversight that took place.

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I was just in Barrington last year, taking photos and re-tracing the shoot-out using the FBI imagery from that time; it would neat to find out if that Tommy was actually at the scene...I can feel the goosbumps rising now, lol.:)

 

Rob

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Rob,

Bill was thinking if it was recovered years later as the Thompson & Monitor were missing. Same with the Winchester 07. I had heard somewhere the Thompson was recovered and was used in Chase's or Helen's trial as evidence. I've got newspaper clippings of at least her trial. ( somewhere)

There was also some chatter about the Winchester 07 being a Lebman full auto weapon, but I think we found out otherwise now.

To much information...

 

OCM

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Rob,

Bill was thinking if it was recovered years later as the Thompson & Monitor were missing. Same with the Winchester 07. I had heard somewhere the Thompson was recovered and was used in Chase's or Helen's trial as evidence. I've got newspaper clippings of at least her trial. ( somewhere)

 

Nelson's Barrington gun is a bit of a mystery. The original FBI summary does not mention any seized weapons other than a Colt Ace pistol. Later reports mention various magazines and ammunition. Finally, there is talk about #2179, which was supposedly matched to both this shooting and the South Bend robbery. That's in Heringstad's book. He only cites FBI sources but doesn't give the file numbers. I haven't seen those files, they are not included in the FBI Vault. Anyway, that would appear to exclude this avenue for #5487, although, again, Nelson was supposed to have "four machine guns and four rifles" at Barrington, so #5487 might still have BEEN there, he just didn't use it.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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I'm outta gas here on this subject, now we're going into speculation.

Wait to see what CC can produce about the background IRS registration etc. That will be very, very interesting.

 

At least one thing, it's a Baby Face Nelson Thompson !!!!

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I apologize for not participating more in this post, but have been working long hours.

Thanks to every one who has contributed, very exciting !

And a special thanks to OCM who has gotten me hooked on reading these FBI files, I read till my eyes hurt !

 

We have confirmed by more than a reasonable doubt that 5487 was brought back into the US by brothers Silva and Jesus Simon and Nathan Cordova. Sold to Stockmeyer who then sold to Lebman.

Lebman then mailed 5487 and two others in late October 1933 to Joseph Bennett in Minneapolis, brother-in-law of Tommy Carroll.

Bennett and his wife by sworn statements, admitted to signing for these packages, approximately 30" long and 8x8" square, some packages larger, but denied knowing there contents.

They also identified by photos, men known to them as Wayne Hunter (Homer Van Meter) and Jimmie Williams (Lester Baby Face Nelson), who visited Carroll at there home. 5487 then disappears.

 

I must say a big thank you today to Frank Gopert and his crew, they have supplied me with a very good lead !

The client they purchased it from had 5487 for roughly 45 years, he purchased it from a Class 3 dealer in Wind Lake Wisconsin, approximately 55 miles north of the Battle of Barrington ! Nelson's last stand so to speak.

So that's the update for now, still trying to put the puzzle pieces together ! Hope there's more to discover !!!!

 

Thanks Much !!!!

Edited by Colt Chopper
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The hunt is still on, CC called tonight with some new territory on the ongoing research. Hunting the history on the Nelson gun , post Nelson. ( Is that post mortem ?? ) Lots of interesting, potential conclusions.

CJL & I are discussing the possibility of the parallel , with the Nelson-Chase Monitor too. Not lightly, seriously.

 

Stay tuned- See what happens here. CC is a maniac on research , never as bad as I, says me. Haaaaa

 

OCM

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The information on the where the gun from prior to the dealer that sold it to Colt Chopper is very interesting. It is very near to the area of Lake Geneva/Lake Como area where Nelson used to like to hide out. The gun could have easily been turned over to local police (or confiscated) in that area back in the day and the FBI never notified. The Racine Bank Robbery that the Dillinger gang was responsible for was also not far away either. I think this is the key to Colt Chopper's gun.

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Chuck-

yes, that's the avenue we're headed. Actually Colt Chopper is doing the leg work, I'm just filling in the history and association blanks, like the Como Inn, Barrington, Racine.. CC recently got some good background on it too.

Seemed to now be circling the whole Nelson area with tiny leds.

Going to take some time, little pieces of the puzzle.

Colt Chopper with provide more, he's busy at work, I'm just retired, have time to write and ponder on things like this.

 

OCM

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From what I have read on this thread, there doesn't seem to be a positive connection to any law enforcement agency. It is equally possible that an individual had the gun squirreled away until the 1968 amnesty. It will be interesting to see what a FOIA turns up with respect to the first registration.

 

Dan

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Talked with Colt Chopper this morning, sounds like FOIA may be the home run. How long does that take ????

He can go over it -

From our conversation, I'm very optimistic on what he learned.

So, he's got the Thompson up to when Nelson got it, now possibly what happened to it after he was killed and eventually, into Colt Chopper's possession.

What a story. The luckiest man on Earth.

 

OCM

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Colt Chopper should do a summary, it seems to change daily now, lots of twists and turns. Helmer just tossed yet another small wrench into the works this afternoon, when I called him. Geeez. Lot of little pieces. FBI files turn you cross-eyed.

 

To much typing for me- Be a long summery.

 

Good idea Buz.

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From what I have read on this thread, there doesn't seem to be a positive connection to any law enforcement agency. It is equally possible that an individual had the gun squirreled away until the 1968 amnesty. It will be interesting to see what a FOIA turns up with respect to the first registration.

 

Dan

Dan,

 

I mentioned a police agency confiscation or turn-in because all the guns I have seen over the years that were confiscated police agencies had the IRS type number assigned a long time ago. I don't know if they were using that method in 1968. Maybe T-Man could weigh-in and let us know if the when they stopped using the IRS number to register firearms with defaced serial numbers?

 

Sandy,

 

I am not trying to contradict anything you have previously posted about the Nelson connection in this thread. Jack discussed this by phone with me, also. When I learned where the gun has probably been the past 50 years, it became apparent that the gun could have fallen into law enforcement hands in the southern Wisconsin area because that is where Nelson liked to hide and the Racine Bank Robbery was in that area. I don't mind being proven wrong about the gun being turned in to local law enforcement. I just don't see any other logical way that it became legally registered and into private hands. I still maintain, if the FBI knew about the gun, they would have confiscated it for ballistic testing. After all, a law enforcement officer was wounded in the Racine robbery and if it was used in the Barrington shoot-out, you can bet the FBI would have confiscated the gun, two of their Agents were killed.

 

If a private citizen found it at the Como Inn after Nelson's death, it still could have been turned in to the local police even several years after it was found and the police department registered it. Most of those early registrations by police agencies occurred in the 1930's because the NFA Act was still new and people were aware of it, e.g., the St. Valentine's Day Massacre guns were registered in 1934. I don't think the private citizen kept it all those years and then registered it in 1968. I believe the IRS stamp is older then that. This is why I believe T-Man can help us on that point.

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Chuck-

Not trying to prove anything on this- Previous posting are being updated as this thing unfolds. Doubt it has anything to do with the Como Inn, just the reason that Nelson was involved there. Barrington maybe.

Right now everything is basically a moot point, till Colt Chopper secures the FOIA stuff. Call him about that, interesting dialog with the ATF-

He needs to bring this up, my nose is far to far into this.

 

OCM

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Sandy,

No argument here. I'm just throwing in my two-cents based on what I've seen over the years in law enforcement. I'm as excited as the rest to see where this gun came from. I assured Colt Chopper, you're the expert on the Dillinger/Nelson gangsters.

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This is a big Thompson historical find- Never seen anything like this, in a private weapon find. I'm very excited as we all can see. Like finding a Jesse James pistol in Grandma's drawer.

I missed getting Dillinger's Colt 38 super pistol, everyday I start on the kick my ass stationary bike.

Mr.Chopper has it secured.

 

Let's see where it goes-

 

I'm the history guy, you are the gun guy. Colt Chopper is the winner-

 

Nite,

 

OCM

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Prior to 1972, ATF used the IRS stamp. There may have been some overlap during the summer and fall of 1972 before the new stamps were sent to the field. When I was in the San Antonio Field Office, we still had the IRS stamp in the metal stamping kit. I believe that the first number after the IRS is the district that the number was issued from. I have sent emails to our historian and to a contact up at Firearms Tech Branch. Hopefully I'll hear something soon.

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Here is the latest update.

With help from GI Jive, was able to locate the Class 3 Dealer from Wisconsin, (now in Pharr Texas), and after a few phone calls he called me back.

Very nice gentlemen, he sold a lot of Thompsons back in the day ! Through conversation with him and a couple other's, was able to determine that he acquired it from the Manitowoc Wisconsin PD, who registered it in 1968.

He remembered it was a "One Off Deal". that it was the only automatic firearm they had, and thought he remembered them saying it was confiscated in a bank robbery. No other recollection other than the "Eradicated" serial number as he put it.

I have Googled Manitowoc every way I can and find nothing. GI Jive has put out feelers to the PD, hopefully they will come up with some history of it.

Slowly filling in the blanks, now just need 1934-1968 !!!!!!!!!

If I've missed something, hopefully OCM or others will chime in.

Thanks again to GI Jive and OCM, they keep me at it !!!!!

Edited by Colt Chopper
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