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Jim Ballou's "Monitor"


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#21 jim c 351

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 12:30 PM

George,

Well , naturally I'm disappointed, but I understand what you are saying.

I also sent an email to you and suggested you work with Frank Iannamico, who I believe is an excellent researcher, to see if a more fact based book could be written. Perhaps that's not possible.

Is Armor Plate Press still working on the book or did they cease upon Jim's death??

In any case I thank you for responding and wish you a happy new year and best of luck in the future.

Jim C


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#22 Junkyardslug

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 05:48 PM

Armor Plate Press has put a large amount of effort into the book prior to Jims passing. Work stopped because they also concluded that there wasn't enough material with what Jim was presenting to them to go forward.

I only hold the research material. As I see it all intellectual property of the book belonged to Jim Ballou and Armor Plate Press and since Jim is no longer with us whatever becomes of the book, it is not my call


ALSO; keep in mind that Jim was not silent between the publication of 'Rock in a Hard Place' and his passing He continued to publish articles and a large part of what he covers in his new book is just a revamping of those articles.

There is really nothing that I have found to date going through the papers that is groundbreaking or will alter to any extent the history or our understanding of the BAR as laid out in Rock in a Hard Place.
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#23 jim c 351

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 07:22 PM

George,

Thanks again for your comments.

I recently bought a Colt 1919 commercial AMR.

The Colt commercial BAR's were not heavily covered in Jim's book. I was hoping more info would be forthcoming.

I'll post some pics in a week.

Many thanks again.

Jim C


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#24 johnsonlmg41

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 08:39 PM

Jim may have been correct about the Monitor population?  Where is the documentation about the production numbers located?  I'd like to have a look at it?  I saw a bunch of them "out of the country", maybe they were sold out of the 125 batch further down the line after the first sale?   I've spoken with several authors  and Collector grade makes significant edits I'm told. 


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#25 HANS

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 04:07 AM

Just as an example, in the piece Jim wrote about the Monitor that I posted above; he said "From the number of rifles turning up, one could speculate possibly 1,000 were actually produced"  Well, we don't have to speculate, because we know how many monitors were produced because we have the Colt records.  It was 125.  90 went to the FBI, 35 went to prisons, banks, mine companies, dealers, ect.  In fact, to whom each Monitor was sold is know because that's in the Colt records also.

 

Hm, have these been published somewhere or does anyone have them who is willing to share them (Colt's doesn't, as I understand)? Because you see, the FBI files I have seen list 87, not 90 Monitors purchased by that agency. Also, the 125 don't seem to take into account the -- at least -- 19 Monitors in 7.65×53mm Mauser that went to Argentina. I would be absolutely thrilled to know the buyers of the 35-odd other Monitors (and related details such as serials and dates of sale), because we might have a chance to solve two Monitor-related issues -- where did "Baby Face Nelson" get his Monitor and when, and where did Frank Hamer get his Monitor and when (this is relevant in regards to claims that he brought the Monitor to kill Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker).

 

Cheers

 

HANS


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#26 JimB

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 06:58 PM

All I can add to the discussion is my doubts that the alleged "factory" records are entirely accurate.  I know for a fact that a small number were sold into Canuck LE.  I have heard two different accounts.  One that a small number went to the Northwest Mounted Police, the other was that the contract was shared with the RCMP.

I will mention this due to having purchased and personally saw cut one in the early 90s in Canada from a retired Mountie. nearly mint condition with factory paperwork, target, colt mags in the LE hardcase.  It was alleged as a Mountie gun, I see no reason to doubt that.

 

Subsequent to that I was offered two others by different folks up there in similar condition.  Both of those were Deacs

Supposed to be one in a museum up there in a NWMP display.

 

Exports ?

Had a buddy email me pix in the late 90s of two rather rusty R75s in a Cuban police armory.  No clue on provenance.  He was Canadian as well, was buying arms up from the government.

 

I have wondered whether Colt may have built psuedo R75s on 1918 receivers using left over bits and thus in records they appear as straight 1918s but I do know first hand the Canadians had a small contract apparently unreflected in so-called records.

 

As far as Jim's notes:

In my opinion they should be released as like Legends of the BAR or some such

I find the cleansing of even myth a bit detestable.  Offer a disclaimer but don't hide it away.

Jim sought this crap out and well yes a bit of it was crap it should be regarded as gun lore...I really don't need some kid to purify it for me in some stupid Coffee Table book

 

both have a place, one as a reference and the other as just entertaining reading


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#27 johnsonlmg41

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 09:05 PM

Course there's a few in this pile.   Sad how the FBI treated them (worse than Hillary's emails)?  Or maybe they did not get them all and these were left on the clandestine pallet? 

Attached Files


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#28 OCM

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 09:41 AM

I've had this similar photo for sometime now, have gone over it with CJL a couple times, believed it to ( probably) be the Argentina 7.65 mm Monitors in the group. A R-75 sitting there and a couple WWII BARs. Notice the guy's leg there next to the pallet, in fatigues & boot. Argentina military ? 

Mass of rare parts.  

 

 

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#29 johnsonlmg41

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 09:52 PM

I took the photo.  No, not argentina military...boot or leg anyhow.  I don't know the specific path the guns took.    I never noticed the guys foot, there were other people in the area, but I wasn't paying much attention to where they were standing.  I know for sure the guy was not standing in Argentina, because I was not in Argentina and he was apparently standing next to me?   I don't know CJL (I don't think?), but I also don't think he was in the room?   LOL


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#30 HANS

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 05:42 AM

Course there's a few in this pile.   Sad how the FBI treated them (worse than Hillary's emails)?  Or maybe they did not get them all and these were left on the clandestine pallet? 

 

So these are former FBI guns? Did you take any serial numbers down? Thanks!

 

Cheers

 

HANS


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#31 OCM

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 09:46 AM

CJL wasn't there, we had been BSing about the photo online, mainly the Monitors sitting there. Always a mystery where the photo came from and who took it, where the guns went etc. We had discussed if you ran into a barn and found this pallet sitting there, what would be the legalities to deal with them. Devastating I would  imagine. 

I wouldn't be a hog about it, just the R-75 and 3- R-80s is all and letters to Sing Sing...... 


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#32 jl7422

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 09:21 PM

johnsonlmg41--please tell us more about the circumstance surrounding the photo and the pile of weapons. . .


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#33 johnsonlmg41

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 09:46 PM

If the assumption is that they all went to the FBI (I don't know, just basing that on someone else's post) then they sent them off to a foreign country and look how they were taken care of?    Or as others have stated they made quite a few more than what seems to be documented?   I'm not educated enough on the history of them to even speculate.   They were not in a barn, though they sure do look like it.  Sadly you are correct, devastation is the only way they would see home soil, but if so I'd be sure and save you the pieces you're interested in.  That's not hogging, we're just conservators of history!    I did not have time to access numbers on them since there was a lot of stuff to see and this was but one small pile.  Sadly the deal never went to completion, but I suspect they haven't moved? 

 

As to the foot, it could be that of a real SHTF colonel.  Well decorated, serious jungle combat vet with a hole in his neck near his spine at the base of his neck.  Quiet, low key, nice guy but as you travel you could see he gets the respect of a 3 star general, an honor for me to be next to even though he's not USGI, he is an ally and trained here on occasion.  I can't really go into much more detail than that, he never took his boots off?


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#34 deerslayer

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 01:17 PM

I remember Jerry Prasser at Recon ordnance telling me he was hoping to get a batch of Monitor kits from out of country.   Maybe same batch???  who knows.. but maybe you could give him a call and say I know where this interesting pile of guns is.... (even anonymously if its a super secret location) maybe he could get them legally imported into the US as parts kits.  Somebody should save them or at least parts of them if possible.  Or call Sarco....    


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#35 JimB

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 09:08 PM

I understand there are a small number in the Dominican Republic as well in an armory.  I have aways suspected this image was from the DR, the Cuban survivors appeared in much better condition.

 

This all still begs the question just how accurate the generally accepted numbers actually are.

I wager not valid at all.


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#36 Scrambles

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 08:40 PM

On pg. 94, "Record indicate.. from 31 to 40, the FBI purchased 90, and others accounted for about 20"

 

This is referring to domestic sales of the R80 specifically.

 

In Jims's book, Pg, 95-100 references over 800 gun sales for "Colt Commercials". This is likely what you are seeing in this picture. They could be customized with different trigger groups, calibers, barrel styles, and so forth. You are likely seeing many of these options on that pallet.

 

South America had about 1000 of these guns on record. You can check out who bought how many under what name.

 

If these were handled anything like the Colt Thompson was, (1000's made off the books) there was likely many many more of these floating around the world.

 

A better question is if these piles of rust are useful or functional at all (pitted?), and if new parts should be created in their image instead.. (yes)


Edited by Scrambles, 13 January 2018 - 08:44 PM.

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#37 dalbert

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 07:29 AM

If these were handled anything like the Colt Thompson was, (1000's made off the books) there was likely many many more of these floating around the world.
 


Please provide evidence to substantiate this statement about Colt Thompsons.

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#38 OCM

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 10:42 AM

 Jims's book, Pg, 95-100 references over 800 gun sales for "Colt Commercials". This is likely what you are seeing in this picture. 

In the photo I was referencing, there are I believe M1918A2s sitting on the pallet also. R-80s, R-75s also of course. I was told the same story Dan is referring to about Recon attempting to purchase the " mystery " pallet of  assorted weapons. Sadly all these stories seem to go nowhere about the " mystery" pallet of wonderful parts a lot of us could use. 

I do have a hypothetical question : Say you ran across this pallet sitting in a boneyard in Miami ( or anywhere) , what are the legalities of taking ownership in whole or parts. I'm guessing it's a big pile of BATF poison . 

 

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#39 jl7422

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 01:10 PM

If the contents of this lot were overseas and rendered "parts kits",  am I correct in my understanding that the barrels could not (under current regulations) be imported? 


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#40 Scrambles

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 02:00 PM

Apologies Dave, perhaps I was mistaken with the Colt name, but in "Trouble right away" we can see there is quite a few "AutoOrd prototypes" that got away without numbers. Some on the Honolulu.

Fortune Ryan also seemed to turn a blind eye to things, mentioned several times. They (Colt) claim to have kept the best record, yet I wouldn't be surprised if they were "too" perfect.

Also, I was made personally aware of two Savage guns that made it out of the factory, in the white, with no serial stamps. They were sold by a hobbling old man at a gun show many years ago, claiming to be an prior employee.

The point being is there's good chance a large number of things went "missing" and is still out there. Hidden from other MG enthusiasts out of shame. (largely from prideful rich old men with nfa collection/investments, ahem).

I hope I clarified my statement. Apologies for tarnishing colts reputation, but as said. Finding one or two in the future that skipped the final paperwork doesn't surprise me at all, and neither should you! Remain speculative. We don't know everything,

As far as those parts, if in FL, yes. Have at it. Should you bring in the receiver, no. Should you bring in the barrel, no. Can you? Well yes, you could. Customs isn't watching for it. It's a tube or brick to them. (Truth hurts)

Let's see some nice 80% and someone here turn some finned barrels. Maybe Dominic? He's still around and does amazing lathe work! Let's give the guy some business. Maybe someone has old drawings or specs on these finned barrels for reproduction. The R75a and unique parts should be documented and drawn. The rusty parts are exciting, but what will you do with them..? Polish them with some 0000 steel wool, oil and run it pitted? I get it, provenance.

But this is a largely rusty story that nobody (really) must care about.
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