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Please Help with Value of 1921 Thompson


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Hello,

I was recently presented with the opportunity to purchase a C&R transferable Colt 1921 Thompson. The paperwork is all there, listing Colt as the manufacturer. The finish appears all original with about 80% remaining blue. Everything looks exactly as it should. I have inspected it in person. Not a reweld. I do have photos, but I do not want to post them publicly without the seller's permission. I did see one sell at Morphy's for around $50k, but that looked to be in near mint condition with a 4 digit serial. This one looks exactly the same, but with a 5 digit serial and about 80% blue.

 

I hope that is enough info to get some advice on a reasonable value. I appreciate any insight I might receive.

Edited by tricky9914
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Are all the correct internals present? Is the wood correct, original and not cracked? Is the barrel correct and original?

 

The answers to these questions will have a large impact upon the price.

 

I would highly suggest you buy TD's book:

 

An Amateur's Guide for the Colt's Thompson Submachine Gun: (Or How to be an Informed Buyer in a Very Expensive Market)

 

https://www.amazon.com/Amateurs-Guide-Colts-Thompson-Submachine/dp/1794453814

 

It will help you answer the above questions.

 

Having said all that, in today's market, I would say an 80% gun with all the correct parts would sell in the low to mid 30's.

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Might I suggest that you post it here and block out the serial number. Pricing a weapon without looking at it is just taking a wild guess at best. I will tell you that an 80% weapon in my mind is pretty rough. On the other hand, my 80% might be the next guy's 90%. I mean no disrespect, but people call here all the time and say, " I have this xx weapon, how much is it worth?" I quickly respond by saying, "how much is my truck worth?" They say, "how the hell do I know, I would need to see it." End of conversation. BTW. I can't tell you how many WWII 28's have come through here with the NFA paperwork stating in the description "Colt Thompson" as the manufacturer. All of that said, an all correct Thompson (21A, 21AC, Navy?) in the 80% range should pull about $30K these days. IMHO, when Colt Thompson's get above the 90% range, the game changes. An all correct 93%, 94%, 96%+ Colt is a pretty tough find. Especially a 21A. 80% to 85% are typical. Just my 2 cents.

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Hello and thank you for your feedback. I am going to ask the seller tomorrow for permission to post the photos. If he agrees, then I will share them. The wood is free of cracks and appears to be original (although I am not an expert on 1921's). He purchased the firearm in 1994 and has owned it ever since. He also has a complete set of paperwork dating from its original registration to its last transfer in 1994. I'll hopefully be in touch with more info tomorrow.

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The main thing that would concern me is the barrel. If the barrel

is not original that reduces the value of the gun by $5K. There are numerous

reasons why a barrel would have been changed ranging from reactivating a

light Dewat to replacing a bulged barrel. Over the years people have gotten

real good a copy-catting barrels. If the gun is as you describe I'd also say in the

$30K range with the caveat that anything incorrect, overly worn, or slightly

damaged reduces the value of the gun.

If you can post the pictures we'll all have fun beating the stuffing out of

it....so to speak...

 

Bob

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tricky9914,

The purchase of any Thompson submachine gun, especially a Colt's, is usually an expensive undertaking. Most enthusiasts will only have the opportunity to own one. May I suggest you understand the product before making the purchase. There is a lot to learn on this subject, especially if all Thompson guns look alike from 5 feet away. That is one reason I wrote my latest book, An Amateur's Guide for the Colt's Thompson Submachine Gun. If you are truly thinking about plunking down $30,000 plus for a Thompson gun, this will be the best $50 you ever spend - if you do it beforehand. I always suggest reading the book cover to cover with a highlighter and then going back a second and third time studying the parts you initially found useful. Whatever model or variation Colt's you are currently looking at will be discussed in detail. Hint: the photograph captions contain a wealth of information. All of this can be done in several days and will give you a jump start on your product knowledge. Couple my book with this forum and you will become an informed buyer in a short amount of time. But the learning process will always be continuing. There are members on this Forum that have owned over 50 Colt's but still learn something new on a regular basis. This forum is one of the few gun places on the Internet where knowledgeable Thompson enthusiasts gather without all the usual trolling found everywhere else. Once the serial number of your Colt's is known, I would not be surprised if one of the forum members knows something directly related to this Thompson. PM me the serial number with your e-mail address, and I may surprise you! I will not share with anyone without your permission.

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tricky9914,

That is one reason I wrote my latest book, An Amateur's Guide for the Colt's Thompson Submachine Gun. If you are truly thinking about plunking down $30,000 plus for a Thompson gun, this will be the best $50 you ever spend - if you do it beforehand. I always suggest reading the book cover to cover with a highlighter and then going back a second and third time studying the parts you initially found useful.

 

Heads up for tricky9914 so he is not confused about some information he finds while highlighting.

 

P.178

Photos show difference between Type I and Type II Cutts Compensators yet the Type I Cutts Compensator shown has a flat sight.

P. 107

"Given the rarity of the Model of 1927, it is almost unbelievable the STL PD purchased 6 Model of 1927 - ..."

Camden, New Jersey P.D. purchased 6 MODEL1927's as well which makes the purchase of MODEL 1927 by police departments not as astounding as previously thought.

 

P. 62

"White markings were not applied at Colt's or AOC and are used today for display purposes."

 

Many examples of white lettering shown on Colt TSMGs in period photographs most notably the May 10, 1922 pic of John T. Thompson showing left side white markings. 1922 photo of U.S. Army Officers showing right side white markings. (see pics below)

 

Pretty sure that someone associated with AOC did apply the lettering for the publicity pictures. Was this standard operating procedure at Colt and or AOC at time of manufacture, inspection or preparation for storage? No, but that is not to say white markings are only found on contemporary examples of Colt TSMGs when they can be found on examples when the original 15,000 Colt TSMG were still being manufactured at Colt's Patent Fire Arms Mfg. Co. in May, 1922.

 

P. 130

July 23, 1947 photo shows St. Louis PD with Colt TSMG #5177 with white lettering.

 

post-110-0-08427900-1579969519_thumb.jpg post-110-0-55799700-1579969531_thumb.jpg

post-110-0-64899000-1579970693_thumb.jpg

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TD thanks very much for your work and how much effort you have put into building this community. You are one of the best and a professional in your writing and with speaking with you. I would hold any information you get from TD in the highest regard and you can learn a lot from him and from his well thought out and put together research.

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I just got off the phone with TD. What a great source of information and a stand-up guy. He definitely gave me a lot more than I bargained for in terms of information. I have a lot more to learn about the 1921, but I am glad I am starting off by meeting the right people. Thanks for your time again on the phone, TD, and thank you all for answering my questions!

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Arty,

I was the one who put the white lettering on #5177 recently, but not in 1947. There was none on it when I got it. As mentioned many times, if one takes Hoppes #9 or any other solvent, the white lettering goes away.

 

Do you know the disposition of the six Camden NJ 1927s?

Are they registered?

Still with the PD?

I would be very curious to see if any or all of them survived with the original 1927 parts still in them.

And of course, I would love to see a few pics of any of them now!

Edited by giantpanda4
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Not wanting to further hijack this thread, but Gordon shows three guns (all 1927A) in Camden, NJ. 4390, 5239, and 5286. One is owned by a board member, and was at one time a dewat. 4390 is not known after Camden owned it. Do they still have it? And, 5286 is last known to be in Boston - with some non-original parts.

 

Please let us know the other three serial numbers and there whereabouts if you have them!

 

Or are they that rare.....?

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Not wanting to further hijack this thread, but Gordon shows three guns (all 1927A) in Camden, NJ. 4390, 5239, and 5286. One is owned by a board member, and was at one time a dewat. 4390 is not known after Camden owned it. Do they still have it? And, 5286 is last known to be in Boston - with some non-original parts.

 

Please let us know the other three serial numbers and there whereabouts if you have them!

 

Or are they that rare.....?

 

 

Sorry to disappoint you on the number count, but there were indeed six as documented by real time reporting.

 

Chief of Police James E. Tatem arranged for the purchase of the Colts back in February. 1928 and a month later, Mayor Winfield Price fired Tatem and replaced him with Chief Stehr. The firing might have stemmed from the following newspaper account of this transaction.

 

 

Camden Courier-Post - February 4, 1928

POLICE INVITE BANDITS

TO NICE SHOOTING PARTY

 

But Yeggs Must Leave Gats at Home While Cops Practice

With Camden's new Desperado Eliminators

Wanted: Targets for Camden’s new desperado eliminators. Bandits, burglars, snipers and their ilk are requested by Chief of Police James E. Tatem to apply at police headquarters Monday morning at 10 o’clock, when a practice shooting party will be held.

Chief Tatem said today Camden’s bandit-chasing squad is “just rarin’ to go” with six new automatic rifles guaranteed to shoot full of holes the toughest bandit in less time than it takes to say “Aligoop.”

 

For the further enlightenment of the bandit fraternity, Chief Tatem announced detailed instructions on how to use the new carbines will be given this afternoon at 3 o’clock to bandit chasing police by Captain Arthur Colsey and Herman Engle, a representative of Stein Brothers, this city.

The rifles arrived at police headquarters yesterday afternoon. They will be distributed in each of the city’s three police districts in the campaign to rid the city of desperadoes.

The weapons can fire a magazine of 20 shots in a few seconds. They will be mounted in the three red bandit chasing coupes used by the district squad members. One of the coupes is now being used by Archie Reiss and Vernon Jones in South Camden, while two others are expected to be delivered within a few days, according to Chief of Police James E. Tatem. They will be assigned to Walter Smith and Joseph Carpani, First district detectives and Louis Schlam and Richard Donnelly in the East Camden district.

Swivel attachments make it possible to fire the guns from a fixed point in an automobile. Detached they may be fired from the shoulder. Besides firing a magazine of 20 shots without stopping, they can be adjusted to single fire, using .45 caliber cartridges.

Instruction in the adjustment and use of the weapons will be given today by a representative of the company that sold them- at $175 each— to the city.

 

Camden, P.D. 1949post-110-0-20680100-1580169418_thumb.jpg #5286post-110-0-36373000-1580169435_thumb.jpg post-110-0-42940500-1580169514_thumb.jpg #5239

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Arthur,

Thank you for purchasing and proofing my new book. I always appreciate feedback.

 

Regarding the front sight insert on the Type 1 compensator, this picture is from one of the STL PD Colt's. I hate the camera angle does not suit you. That said, I am not sure a (flat) front sight insert from GI Type 3 or Type 4 or modern day compensator would fit on an original Type 1 compensator. Interesting question.

 

It is "unbelievable" the St. Louis Police Department purchased six Model of 1927 Semi-Automatic Carbines. It would also be unbelievable if the Camden, New Jersey Police Department did likewise. Unfortunately, all we have is a newspaper story stating this. While not discounting the possibility, I am going to go with Gordon on this one since he has the (3) serial numbers.

 

Your on your own with the white lettering. Unless you want to talk SHOT magazines.

 

All good stuff!

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Arthur,

 

That is an interesting article, thanks. I do not understand how the semiautomatic carbine can fire 20 rounds without stopping. So the writer was commenting in general about Thompsons, and probably did not know these were semi autos.

 

But no one has any idea what the other serial numbers of the other three are?

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Arthur,

Thank you for purchasing and proofing my new book. I always appreciate feedback.

 

Tom,

If it isn't too presumptuous of a machinegunboard member, perhaps you could alert readers of your publication about your quicksilver standards and practices. A disclaimer in the front of your guide would help avoid confusion as to what you deem reliable historical evidence from unreliable historical evidence. A few suggestions:

 

1) Period newspaper photos are unreliable in proving existence of AOC applied highlighted rollmarkings dating back to time when Colt TSMGs were still in produciton.

2) Period newspaper accounts are unreliable in documenting purchase date and number of TSMGs ordered from AOC

3) Gordon Herigstat Colt serial numbers periodical is reliable for reporting the original purchase date (mostly unreported in his book), and number of TSMGs ordered from AOC, but not reliable when reporting the total number of Colt TSMGS exported to foreign countries.

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For comparison here is a link to an all correct Colt Thompson 80-85% condition available with accessories for $35,000

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23854&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1

post-39665-0-77838300-1580536509_thumb.jpeg

Edited by wwiifirearms
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