49 replies to this topic

[Hurridale]

OK, this is a follow-up of the WWII movie thread. If you could, what WWII event would you pay money to go see?

What about the real-life inspiration for 007? Or the exploits of OSS agents who later became governent officials? How about Lee Marvin's real story, or that of Eddie Arnold?

My vote would go for some tank battle in the Western Desert, like a film version of "Brazen Chariots" (South African Major Crisp even mentions blasting at enemy trucks in late 1941 with a Thompson as they drive thru them with their US built Stuart tanks). Or the raid on Narvik (should have plenty of Tommies).

The more Thompsons, the more I'll pay to see it. Bring out an M3 or a Sten, and I'll wait till it comes out on video.

[85th Engineer]

A real Iwo Jima movie. Not the "in name only" flick like the Duke made in '49. Wouldn't necessarily be a Thompson heavy movie, but certainly could include plenty of em. I've read every book written on that battle and it was one engagement that had to be pure horror. Like being miniturized and dropped into the middle of a bed of fire ants surrounded by water. Heck, it sure could be low budget as far as location, all you'ed need is to set up in a strip mine and whallah, instant Iwo terrain. Planning a trip to Iwo in March of '05 for the 60th anniversary of the battle. So I guess my choice of a movie is a bit influenced by that.

[John Jr]

US Pilots of WW2 in Europe and the Pacific.

Hanging out of the window with Thompsons of course!

Jr

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Hollywood could remake The Joseph McConnell story without the 1950's sentimentality, and while they are at it, they could make the Dick Bong story. How America's #1 ace never got a film is a mystery. But the perfect picture that was never made for Arnold Schwarzennegger would have been one based on Otto Skorzeny's exploits in Italy (rescuing El Duce) and during The Battle of The Buldge infiltrating the American lines with his MP saboteurs.

[full auto 45]

I thought that America's #1 Ace was the late Joe Foss? Marine Captain if I remember.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Mike,
Foss? He was America's 9th greatest ace of WWII. Even counting his Korean War kills, he doesn't approach Dick Bong's 40 kills in his P-38.

[Hurridale]

Joe Foss was top Navy pilot with 26 kills (Marine). Dick Bong was highest overall with 40. (USAAF).

As I recall, Dick Bong was killed test piloting one of the first jets (XP-80?) on the day they dropped the Hiroshima bomb.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Hurridale,
Actually, if you consider the Marines as part of the Navy, Pappy Boyington with 28 kills beats Foss, even though he counts his CBI Theater kills when he was with the Flying Tigers.

[Hurridale]

QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Feb 21 2004, 11:13 AM)

Hurridale, Actually, if you consider the Marines as part of the Navy, Pappy Boyington with 28 kills beats Foss, even though he counts his CBI Theater kills when he was with the Flying Tigers.

Maybe he beat Foss, maybe not. From http://www.acepilots.../usmc_aces.html :

Boyington claimed to have shot down six Japanese fighters, which would have made him one of the first American aces of the war. He maintained until his death in 1988 that he did, in fact, have six kills, and the Marine Corps officially credits him with those kills. From AVG records, which were loosely kept, he was credited (paid) for 2 aerial kills. Why the discrepancy between 2 and 6? I think Bruce Gamble, in Black Sheep One got it right. Gamble notes that in a raid on Chiang Mai, Boyington was one of four pilots who were credited with destroying 15 planes on the ground. As the AVG paid for destroyed Japanes planes, on the ground or in the air, Boyington lobbied for his share of the Chiang Mai planes - 3.75, to be precise. Later, while at Guadalcanal, he characterized his Flying Tiger record as including "six kills." For Greg Boyington, to add 3.75 ground claims to 2 aerial kills, round it off to six kills, and establish himself as one of the first American aces, was a "little white lie" indeed. But once his AVG number of six kills found its way into print, and his USMC victories started piling up, there was no going back. Dan Ford's Flying Tigers web site also has a detailed discussion of Pappy Boyington's claims with the AVG.

(Nice site with lots of great links.)

Regardless, it seems this ranking matters a lot more to us than it did to Foss (I wonder if the same could be said for Boyington?). From Foss's obituary at http://www.arlington....net/jjfoss.htm :

But Foss thrived. On June 7, 1943, his picture appeared on the cover of Life magazine as "America's No. 1 Ace," a title he later gracefully yielded to fellow Marine Gregory "Pappy" Boyington, who'd scored 28 kills. Foss wasn't interested in rivalry, once telling a reporter he just wanted to knock down Japanese planes "so the suckers wouldn't be back the next day."

Regards,
DC

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Hurridale,
If you agree that the job at hand was to shoot down zeroes, no matter where they were encountered, or what uniform the U.S. pilot was wearing when they smoked the zero, then I guess Boyington is the bonafide champion. Also, who knows how many more planes Greg might have shot down hade he not been a Japanese POW for the remainder of the war. I think it is peculiar to challenge the motivations of Boyington, a Medal of Honor recipient, for how, or why, he managed to shoot down enemy planes. If healthy competition motivated himself and his men then so be it. I don't recall Greg being disrespectful of Voss. If Joe didn't like "Black Sheep Squadron" then he was in a long line of other vets who didn't appreciate Boyington's celebrity.

[Hurridale]

QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Feb 21 2004, 12:17 PM)

Also, who knows how many more planes Greg might have shot down hade he not been  a Japanese POW for the remainder of the war.

Arthur,

Your quote above could be said of every pilot of every branch of every side who ended up interned. I'm just glad Pappy made it back alive.

Pardon my stating the obvious, but as I think about your quote there, the only response I can come up with is, "Well, duh..."

Regards,
DC

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Huirridale,
I guess I was being too obtuse. The fact that Boyington shot down more planes than Foss in a shorter period of time , considering he was a POW for a year, only under scores his prowess as a fighter pilot. Since you brought up the Flying Tigers count issue, I think the fact Foss had more time in the air, after Boyington was shot down, to surpass Greg's score, more than compensates for Greg's CBI victories.

[Hurridale]

Arthur,

To be sure, they were both great pilots and each worthy of their own movie (the original intent of this thread). Boyington deserves better than what he got with "Black Sheep Squadron".

As for Pappy doing more in less time, I believe you are mistaken, sir. From Foss's obituary ( http://www.arlington....net/jjfoss.htm ):

Engaging in almost daily combat with the enemy from 9 October to 19 November 1942, Captain Foss personally shot down 23 Japanese planes and damaged others so severely that their destruction was extremely probable.

That's 23 kills in 32 consecutive days.

By January 15, 1943, Foss had all 26 of his kills. He contracted malaria and was sent home, although he did return to the South Pacfic to command VMF-115, late in the war.

As for Boyington, from http://www.acepilots...boyington2.html
During the period from September 1943 to early January 1944, Boyington destroyed 22 Japanese aircraft.
(He was shot down and captured on Jan 3, 44, nearly a year after Foss had accumulated all his kills)

That's 22 kills in over 90 consecutive days.

You got it backwards, Arthur. (It wouldn't be the first time, or the first time today, for that matter)!

Regards,
DC

[Hawkeye_Joe]

QUOTE

Joe Foss was top Navy pilot with 26 kills (Marine). Dick Bong was highest overall with 40. (USAAF).

Joe was the top Marine Ace with a tally of 26 kills, but the Top NAVY Ace was David McCambell with 34 kills. Now you can hedge bets on who was better all day .. Boyington was a POW for a year, Foss flew obsolete Wildcats against the cream of Imperial Japan's pilots and McCambell flew the Hellcat against young pilots barely out of a shortened flight school. (He got his first kill in May of 1944). But when it comes down to it all of these guys were tops in what they did.

You want a movie about an Ace?? I'd love to see a real Hanks/Spielburg type film about Eric Hartman...352 kills.

Edited by Hawkeye_Joe, 21 February 2004 - 03:10 PM.

[colt21a]

i kinda liked tiger ace. wittmann


but then again who wants a movie about a german tank commander??but if done like das/boot.........can't wait.....gritty oily dirty realism..............

RON of respect.

[M1tommygun]

You could go from the PTO to the ETO and make a movie about "Gabby" Gabretsky. He scored his kills in the big P-47 against some of Germany's best pilots. It would be nice to see a movie with the Thunderbolt in it instead of the Mustang. I know there are far many more Mustang survivors than T-Bolts, but with what computer special effect can do today, who knows. Speaking of the PTO, what about Col. Neel Kearby of the 5th AF 348th fg. He scored 22 victories (12 in the T-Bolt) including six at one time earning him the Medal of Honor. There is not much about the Thunderbolt in the pacific, but they were just as tough there as in Europe.

How about a movie about the ordinary infantryman, not the elite paras and rangers, and the US army's travesty of the replacement system. Show the reality of that awful system in its 'glory'. Please do not get me wrong, I am a BIG WW2 and paratrooper buff. I was floored with the recent movies (SPR, BoB,etc.), and I am waiting on several more that are in the works to be released.

Scott

[Hawkeye_Joe]

Did you notice in BoB that the fighters who shot at the Easy Co. troops in Bastogne were T-Bolts? As the sun came out and they popped the red smoke....Though I think 8 Mah Deuces would have chewed the ground up a hellova lot more than they showed..

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Huridale,
I never said that Foss did not score quicker than Boyington, or got his kills in fewer days time, only that Foss had feasably more time to be in air combat to accumulate more kills. Pappy had malaria also, but he kept on flying. Butch O'Hare shot down five enemy planes in one mssion, so does that mean he is the king?

M1,
These are movies devoted to the average grunt such as "The Story of G.I Joe", "A Walk In The Sun", "The Steel Helmet" (Korea), "Men In War (Korea), and probably one of the best was the two-parter TV show "Combat" called "Hills Are For Hereos".

Hawkeye,
The Germans counted planes destroyed on the ground as kills, and they counted easy marks from The Spanish Civil War in 1936, as well as the unprepared pilots of 1939 Poland. Eric Hartmann is still the all time ace of aces, but with an asterisk.

[Hawkeye_Joe]

QUOTE

Hawkeye, The Germans counted planes destroyed on the ground as kills, and they counted easy marks from The Spanish Civil War in 1936, as well as the unprepared pilots of 1939 Poland. Eric Hartmann is still the all time ace of aces, but with an asterisk.

Yes.. the quality of who was being shot at makes a lot of difference. Same with McCambell..Here is a fairly good site on one reason the Germans had such high kill rates.

German Aces

[Hurridale]

QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Feb 21 2004, 03:18 PM)

Huridale, I never said that Foss did not score quicker than Boyington, or got his kills in fewer days time, only that Foss had feasably more time to be in air combat to accumulate more kills. Pappy had malaria also, but he kept on flying. Butch O'Hare shot down five enemy planes in one mssion, so does that mean he is the king? .

Arthur,

Let me get his straight: Boyington flew with the AVG from November, 41 to April, 42, then with the Marines from April '43 (with VMF-122) to January 3, 44 (with VMF-214). I count that as 15 months assigned to combat units.

Foss was catapulted off the deck and to Guadacanal on Oct 9, '42, and when he flew his last mission there on Jan 15, 43, he had accumulated all 26 of his kills. Now, I count that as about 4 months.

HOW, just HOW do you figure that Foss "had more time in the air" than Boyington? (check my numbers if you want -- you may have to take off your shoes.)

You DO seem to have trouble with numbers, Arthur!

You're wrong. Again.

Regards,
DC

BTW, malaria, if you've never had the privilige to have it, does not impact everyone the same. I doubt that it was Foss's choice to be pulled. You imply that Pappy kept on flying with malaria (he's got my respect!), while Foss chose an easy way out (you don't know that). I doubt if you know the degree of the illnesses involved, or the choices the pilots gave.