Gangster Thompson?

[firearm]

I got this 21A out of my vault and shot up some jpegs. It has a pretty interesting history. I posted this info elsewhere and would like to get some opinions on what you guys think. I would bet from what research that I have done that this originally went from VL&A to some underworld criminal back in the 20's. Gordon gave me the name George Smith, no address, no records as the buyer out of VL&A, but the notation in his last book says the buyer was G.A. Abbot. I think that is a typo. In any case the sales rep for VL&A was a pretty shady character from what I read and sold a lot of weapons to the underworld crime bosses. I could not find any info on how or where the Coroner acquired the weapon so he could run ballistics. I wonder how DeKalb, IL Police Department wound up with it? Think they confiscated it from some criminal? Note that I sold this weapon back in 1991 and finally got it back in 2001. Everyone's 2 cents is welcome.

 

On a side note for you guys that emailed me privately, I simply did not understand how the system worked until today. I just wanted to make sure that you guys that did, didn't think I was ignoring you. Also several have inquired about purchasing weapons and parts. You guys are really in the know and don't like paying those retail prices on my web page. Anyway, I just wanted to pass that on.

 

 

"This original Colt model 1921A Thompson Sub-Machine Gun has a very interesting history. This weapon is one of 34 weapons called in for investigation after the February 14, 1929 St. Valentines Day Massacre during the Cook County Illinois Coroners Inquest. It had been shipped on February 25, 1925 to Von Lengerke & Antoine Sporting Goods at 33 South Wabash Avenue, Chicago, Illinois. Then sold to a "George Smith", no address, no record in June of 1925. The weapon was sold to him by a person brokering weapons for Von Lengerke & Antoine Sporting Goods using the name of Vincent A. Danials, aka Vincenzo Danialski. This weapon was one of ten sold by Danials to persons and or companies, of what would be considered to be "questionable characters" using fictitious company and personal names before he was officially employed. Later Danials actually became an employee of Von Lengerke & Antoine Sporting Goods . Many of the Thompsons sold by Von Lengerke & Antoine Sporting Goods through Danials wound up in the hands of some very notorious gangsters, to include Al Capone, Dillinger, the Red Bolten Gang, Charles Cleaver, Jack McGurn, and many more. Later this Thompson surfaced in the DeKalb, Illinois Police Department. Was it confiscated? Amnesty registered in 1968? As of this date, that is unknown. Maybe a FOIA request will determine how it got there in the future".

"Now to the condition of the weapon. Colt Patent Fire Arms Company in Hartford, Connecticut manufactured this weapon for Auto Ordnance Corporation, New York, N.Y., in 1921. This is the rare 1921A model, no "Cutts" compensator. Very nice wood with the original barrel. Note that the buttstock looks to be original but it does not have the upside down "anchor" mark on the small end of the buttstock. It is the original buttstock? Unknown at this time. The finish is a little thinner where the lower receiver meets the upper but still very nice. Overall, it is an impressive weapon with a plethora of history".

Ownership history as follows:

Von Lengerke & Antoine Sporting Goods, Chicago, IL. 2/25/25

Dekalb, Illinois Police Department

R.J. Perry Associates, Park Ridge, IL. 1980

Douglas Callahan collection, Littlerock, AR. 1980

Nick Tilotta (Western Firearms Company) 5/91

L. J. Davis collection, Grapevine, Texas 9/1994

John M. Schlueter collection, Southlake, Texas 1996

Nick Tilotta (Western Firearms Company) 2/14/2001

 

[anjong-ni]

Really nice Thompson, great photos. Question: Did the Model of 1921 typically have a stock sling swivel?

 

I bought the little blued plate from Gordon to replace it on my fantasy Model '21. He sent me a free pen too ...Phil

[ron_brock]

Really nice Thompson, great photos. Question: Did the Model of 1921 typically have a stock sling swivel?

 

I bought the little blued plate from Gordon to replace it on my fantasy Model '21. He sent me a free pen too ...Phil

Originally no.

 

Ron

[firearm]

That's an interesting question. I have had several weapons through here, re: #129 and #179 that have sling swivels. I have others with serial numbers in the high 13K range that do not. So were they retrofitted with sling swivels later or did someone take a stock off any early weapon and mix it up with a stock off a later weapon? I doubt the stock on #3294 is original as it does not have a nickel plated latch. Maybe it got replaced later on down the road when the original was damaged. Maybe it was mixed up with the stock off another weapon. No way to know. I does not have the "upside down anchor mark", but it sure looks like Remington wood to me.

[Ron Mills]

Very interesting gun and thanks for posting pics/sharing the story. RJ Perry, wow there's a blast from the past!

 

GIJive (Chuck) may know about the Dekalb PD ownership, or maybe colt21a (Ron). Regardless, appreciate'cha. Fun stuff.

 

Ron

[TD.]

NO 3294 definitely has a potential gangster gun pedigree. An acid raised defaced serial number would cement the deal A Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request may help solve some of the unknowns, i.e., initial registration. I would file one now given the time it takes to obtain the information. I would assume many a gangster gun was confiscated without a butt stock. And that may certainly be the case here. Since there is no anchor mark on the butt stock, I suggest removing the butt stock slide group and butt plate to verify what appears to be an early Savage or GI butt stock. The markings on the swivel may also tell the pedigree. I would think the earliest sling swivels found on Colt's (notwithstanding the Model of 1923 experiments) would be the off set Enfield sling swivels.

 

What are they saying on the other place you posted this information?

 

Thanks for sharing!

[firearm]

I posted it on my web page, not on another open for discussion forum. Too much brow beating and too many keyboard quarterbacks out there. I don't get that here. Just facts and logical thinking, backed by a tremendous amount of knowledge. I never thought about the gangster / no stock theory. That makes sense. I was thinking about taking that hardware off last night but it was getting a little late. Someone has already done that in the past. I can tell that by looking at the screws. I have to go out of town for the weekend and will do that when I return. I will file a FOIA request as soon as I get some time. Looks like I need to file about 50 of them. Even if I got info back on #3294, that was shipped in the 20's and the Fed's didn't keep records back then. Same for the 1929 Massacre. What other information do you think might surface with a FOIA?

[halftrack]

Firearm, awesome post! Out of curiosity, do you have any WW2 production Thompsons with a known history (a specific theater/battle veteran bring back) in your collection that you can share with us? I know its a long shot of a request, but being a military guy I had to ask.

[TD.]

For the new members to the machine gun community, Federal registration of machine guns was not required until July 1934. A FOIA request would tell the date NO 3294 was born on the NFA Registry. It is possible a Form 1 was filed by the DeKalb, IL Police Department in the 1930s or later, thereby showing this Thompson has been in police custody for many, perhaps many many years. Or it was amnesty registered by the police department in 1968. Either way, it will provide more definitive information than we have now and could be useful should additional information on NO 3294 surface in the future. Often times, piecing together the history of certain Thompson guns takes several years. FOIA information is usually free so I consider it the best deal in Washington!

[firearm]

I have several WWII Thompson's that have some "Bubba" stories behind them but hard to prove without a ton of research. I have a very early M1 that supposedly came off a WWII submarine. Super clean. I have the 28A1 that was used in the movie Pork Chop Hill. Coachella California 28A1 weapon. A Texas Ranger 28A1. Maybe some other stuff. I hope to get to them later. When I do, I will post them out here

[gijive]

Firearm,

 

Nice looking gun! I was going to respond to your question about what the FOIA request might contribute, but TD already covered that and he is spot on. DeKalb PD may have registered the gun which may add some information about the year it was obtained or confiscated. Regarding the buttstock, the lack of anchor proof and no "in-the-white" latch would probably indicate an early Savage military stock. The Colt guns would almost definitely have an Enfield swivel if the swivel was original to the wood. As previously mentioned, a check of the buttstock hardware may reveal the answer. Although I suspect the butt plate and wood numbers will match, the font on early WWII buttstocks was a little smaller than the stamps used to mark the Remington wood. The early Savage buttstocks will have a matching production number on the latch hardware as well, not all of them do as this was a feature that was apparently dropped early on. You may, however, find a contractor code stamped on the latch hardware which would indicate early WWII production.

 

Being a former law enforcement officer, I'll check and see if I can contact someone at DeKalb Police Department and see if anyone has any information on the gun. Back in the 1970's when Roger Cox was looking for guns information wasn't as hard to come by as most older officers would have been around in the late 1940's and early 1950's when the department gun still may have been in use. When contacted today, most personnel at the police agencies won't even know they had a Thompson at one time unless the agency still has it in inventory.

Edited April 5, 2018 by gijive

[Adg105200]

As gijive said, and if you can get a few pictures; check for numbers on the stock under the buttplate and on the buttplate and possibly on the stock slide hardware as well. Which would help with id. Great story/info and pictures, keep em coming!

 

Andrew

Edited April 5, 2018 by Adg105200

[firearm]

I was going through my 21's and remembered I was going to take the buttplate off #3294 and never got around to it. Here is a jpeg for all to see. The wood, butt plate and the latch are all marked #5248. If I recall, a very early Savage stock assembly. Anyway, it is what came with the weapon so I am letting it be.

[colt21a]

Perry showed me that gun back in the day and the stock was changed out. as far as parts i left it alone. Perry was not into Colt Thompsons like i was i convinced him at that time to get them. Since prices had been on the rise .Also sold a pair of Overstamps to that Mike guy in Texas don't know what ever happened to him or his guns.

 

And on that 28 COOK COUNTY BUTTSTOCK A number of those had been done like that in the late 80's early 90's not rare at all just neat for anybody in that county. Joliet should still have their guns and #3151 in Will County. that one is a real gangster gun.Gordon and myself would burn through pots of coffee going over the fun stuff.When i moved i left Chi-town behind but left a mark ha ha. Ron

 

p.s. The Dekalb gun looks the same as i remember it the Peru ,Il. GUN. THATS A DOOZY.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

"This weapon is one of 34 weapons called in for investigation after the February 14, 1929 St. Valentines Day Massacre during the Cook County Illinois Coroners Inquest."

Nick Tilotta (Western Firearms Company) 2/14/2001

 

That your second time acquisition of #3294 landed on Valentine's Day is right out of "One Step Beyond."

[firearm]

Perry showed me that gun back in the day and the stock was changed out. as far as parts i left it alone. Perry was not into Colt Thompsons like i was i convinced him at that time to get them. Since prices had been on the rise .Also sold a pair of Overstamps to that Mike guy in Texas don't know what ever happened to him or his guns.

 

And on that 28 COOK COUNTY BUTTSTOCK A number of those had been done like that in the late 80's early 90's not rare at all just neat for anybody in that county. Joliet should still have their guns and #3151 in Will County. that one is a real gangster gun.Gordon and myself would burn through pots of coffee going over the fun stuff.When i moved i left Chi-town behind but left a mark ha ha. Ron

 

p.s. The Dekalb gun looks the same as i remember it the Peru ,Il. GUN. THATS A DOOZY.

Mike Schlueter, Mid Cities Firearms, if I remember right. Long out of the business. I sold all of those 21's for him.

[firearm]

 

"This weapon is one of 34 weapons called in for investigation after the February 14, 1929 St. Valentines Day Massacre during the Cook County Illinois Coroners Inquest."

Nick Tilotta (Western Firearms Company) 2/14/2001

 

That your second time acquisition of #3294 landed on Valentine's Day is right out of "One Step Beyond."

I never caught that. I did receive it on Valentines Day. Must be a sign of some type!