rpbcps Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 Sorry for my English : I mean I'm confuse with 1928 chronology and production.I was thinking that 1928 production was before A1, so is the numbering or the 1928 independent of the numbering of the 1928A1 or mixed ?When the Lend Lease Act was passed in March 1941, which provided aid to US Allies, weapons etc. had to be identified as US Property, so the Savage Model of 1928s, at that time had the US added before the Model and A1 added after 1928, retrospectively added by hand stamping, but the serial numbers continued. That is correct, the initial Colt manufactured Model of 1921 produced in 1921/22, had serials number up to 15040. During WW2, when Savage began producing the Model of 1928s, they began at 15041. When the Lend Lease Act was passed in March 1941, which provided aid to US Allies, all weapons etc. had to be identified as US Property. So on the Savage produced Thompsons they retrospectively hand stamped the letters 'U.S.' before Model and after 1928 added 'A1', but the serial numbers continued to run in series on Savage produced Thompsons. Hope that helps. Bonne fin de soirée Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulsavoy Posted January 18, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 merci Richard,If they "retrospectively added letters", they could had pick-up in the stocks independently of the production order,and so could we have 1928 A1 with small numbers, and 1928 with high numbers ?Or all 1928 were made before 1928 A1 ?sorry if this question is stupid, but I'm trying to understand if there is a logical chronology ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 paulsavoy, Yes, the 1928 Model by Savage was before the 1928A1 designation. The serial numbers are in numerical order, there was no special numbering system for the 1928 Model. When the United States passed the Lend-Lease Act they all were marked 1928A1. Some 1928 Models were retro-stamped with US and A1. The switch-over did not occur in one day, there could be retro-stamped 1928A1 marked guns with a lower serial number than a1928 Model, but it would depend on who ordered them and when they were shipped. Generally speaking, the 1928 Models would have lower serial numbers than the 1928A1 Models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpbcps Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 merci Richard,If they "retrospectively added letters", they could had pick-up in the stocks independently of the production order,and so could we have 1928 A1 with small numbers, and 1928 with high numbers ?Or all 1928 were made before 1928 A1 ?sorry if this question is stupid, but I'm trying to understand if there is a logical chronology ! I always believed that the numbers ran consecutively, but for the reason you pointed out, I may be wrong. However, my notes do tell me, that from approx. S/N 26000, the marking dies on the Savage NY address 1928’s were changed, and the 12 patent dates, where replaced with the 13 patent numbers. When A-O relocated their operation to Connecticut the marking dies were changed again, this time to reflect the change in address. I read that the highest serial number Model of 1928 documented with AOC’s New York address is been S-75115, (correct me if I am wrong), while the lowest serial number Model of 1928 recorded with a Bridgeport address is been S-83818. Somewhere in-between those two serial-numbers the dies were changed to reflect AOCs change of address. The first 20,000, (approx.), Bridgeport address 1928’s had the 13 patent numbers roll-marked in the centre of the right-hand side of the receiver and the address at the rear. This changed again from around S/N 100,000, the address was roll-marked at the centre of the receiver and the patent numbers were moved to the rear. This was the final change in the layout, which continued to be used on the subsequent lend lease US 1928A1’s. Something I learned from Tom Davis Jnrs book, "Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story", was that the first Savage Model of 1928’s to have the hand stamped ‘US’ and ‘A1’ added, were part of the British order of 50,000 ‘MODEL OF 1928’ guns, placed just before the introduction of the U.S. Lend Lease Program. Somewhere around the 200,000 serial number range, Savage began using a new roll stamp marked ‘U.S. MODEL OF 1928 A1’, so everything looked tidier. I recommend Tom Davis Jnr’s book to anyone interested in WW2 era Thompson guns and history. Stay Safe Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 Richard, Yes, I agree that the numbers run consecutively. Obviously, there is a little language difficulty going on trying to explain the nuances to the poster asking the question. I was trying to explain a possible scenario where a retro-stamped 1928 Model (to 1928A1) could conceivably have a lower serial number than one marked 1928. I don't believe there would be many like that if any. I probably ended up confusing paulsavoy more than helping him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speeddemon02 Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 (edited) The lowest Bridgeport Savage from TD's book is serial #81492 Edited January 19, 2019 by Speeddemon02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpbcps Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 Richard, Yes, I agree that the numbers run consecutively. Obviously, there is a little language difficulty going on trying to explain the nuances to the poster asking the question. I was trying to explain a possible scenario where a retro-stamped 1928 Model (to 1928A1) could conceivably have a lower serial number than one marked 1928. I don't believe there would be many like that if any. I probably ended up confusing paulsavoy more than helping him.I understand, I am speaking French on a daily basis, with a little 'Algerian Arabic', every day here in Algeria at meetings etc. and it is easy sometimes difficult to explain things to people and often misunderstandings do occur. My reply was to Paulsavoy not to your post, we must have been writing around the same time and I only noticed your reply after I hit the post button for my reply. The lowest Bridgeport Savage from TD's book is serial #81492 Thanks, I stand corrected and will update my notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulsavoy Posted January 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 Thanks for your knowledge guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) paulsavoy and rpbcps, I found an example of the scenario I was referring to when I mentioned that it would be possible for a retro-stamped US 1928 Model A1 to have a lower serial number than a gun marked Model of 1928. The photo below shows a retro-stamped 1928A1 used in a US Army Training film from 1943. The gun is a Savage made 1928 Model Thompson with serial number S-61492. The next photo is from a 1928 Model Thompson in the possession of an Illinois Police Department. This gun was returned to the United States and sold to law enforcement in the late 1950's or early 1960's. Thompson Model of 1928, Serial number S-68088 has British proof marks and was one of the guns sold to the British in the early part of the war. This is one of the guns that is the subject of Tom Davis Jr's excellent book "Great Britain-The Tommy Gun Story". I hope this helps. Edited January 21, 2019 by gijive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 Looks like maybe M1928s and M1928A1s were seperate contracts, with seperate serial numbers. Makes sense. A '28 is not a '28A1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) Looks like maybe M1928s and M1928A1s were seperate contracts, with seperate serial numbers. Makes sense. A '28 is not a '28A1.I don't believe they were separate serial numbers. The Thompson in the Army Training film is 1928 Model Thompson that was retro-stamped with the US and A1 added. They were the same guns, The Army designated the Thompson as the US Model of 1928A1. There are some Colt 1928 Overstamp guns that the Army ordered in the 1930s that were stamped with the US and A1 added. Were there separate contracts, yes, that was my earlier point. When the Army ordered the 1928 Model Model it got stamped with the added US and A1 designation. The British orders went out as the 1928 Model. Same guns, same production. It wasn't until the time frame of the Lend-Lease Act that all production of the 1928 Model was changed to the 1928A1 designation. I believe that this is explained pretty well in American Thunder III by Frank Iannamico. Edited January 21, 2019 by gijive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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