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Colt Era Long Cleaning Rods


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GUTTERRAT,

Excellent observation. I too have heard that all the original Colt era long cleaning rods have slots with square ends - but I have never seen that statement in print and supported by some type of study or documentation. I bet some members are learning that for the first time by reading this thread. And I don't know if it is true. I would bet that no one has ever done any long term research on this topic. Some of the long reproduction cleaning rods on the market today may have been manufactured over 30 years ago.

 

The rod shown in post #11 by Board member ineverlistentofm certainly appears to be an original long cleaning rod with a slot with rounded ends. I have asked him for additional pictures; hopefully, he will post some soon. The Michigan State Prison cleaning rods owned by Board member 1921A do not have slots with perfectly square ends. Depending on the angle of the picture you can make the slots appear more rounded or square - but the slots do not appear to be perfectly shaped one way or the other. The middle rod posted by SIG, from his police hard case, also appears to have a slot that is not perfectly square or rounded. That is why I asked both of these members for additional pictures.

 

What we need are more Board members to post pictures of their long cleaning rods and provide any provenance that can aide in helping us sort all this out. I feel pretty confident the long reproduction cleaning rod identified above as being sold by class three dealer Terry Williams (as a reproduction) has been identified. But I am open to someone posting pictures of an identical rod with some provenance that will make us rethink this position.

 

In a nutshell, I don't know how many types of original long cleaning rods exist. I have a feeling that more than one type exists, but we will only be able to make that judgment if we get a lot of participation.

 

All good stuff!

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Greg (1921A) is going to send me a picture of the jag for his rod of unknown origin. I will update the post when I receive the picture. Hopefully, we will be able to make some comparisons.

 

Shown below are some pictures from Board member DLansky of his mystery long cleaning rod - appropriately named. I believe it to be a Terry Williams reproduction rod but encourage all comments and discussion.

 

Mystery 2.jpg Mystery 1.jpg

 

I was asked the value of a Terry Williams long reproduction cleaning rod. I would assume somewhere under $100 as that is the price of a Gordon long repro cleaning rod. Let the Board know your thoughts on this.

 

 

 

 

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Greg Fox (1921A) sent me a picture of the jag end of his rod of unknown origin. I am going to post the two pictures above and this new picture so we have all three pictures of this rod of unknown origin in one thread. Greg may be providing additional pictures and information. If so, I will update this post.

 

Williams and Unknown.jpg Long Rod Loops.jpg

Unknown Rod Jag & Slot.jpg

 

A careful review of the pictures indicates this rod of unknown origin is very similiar to the rod shown above in ebay auction No.3, the long cleaning rod listed as a reproduction rod by the seller. Of course, the seller could be wrong about it being a reproduction...or not. I am posting another picture of the unknown rod jag and slot, this time with an arrow pointing to the part of the jag that has my attention:

 

Unknown Rod Jag & Slot with arrow.jpg

 

Note how this section of the rod appears shorter and somewhat larger than the original rod posted by aut-ord-co and the Michigan State Prison Rods owned by 1921A. A quick review of the pictures of rods posted in this thread revealed a similarity to the following rods:

 

ebay reproduction a.JPG

ebay auction No. 3 - described as a reproduction rod

 

Dec 2013 a Top Original.JPG

ebay auction No. 1, top rod, described as original

 

Tips 1.jpeg

Rods posted by SIG, bottom rod from the Warren Kreiser collection

 

I welcome everyone's thoughts about this rod. We really need more pictures. And more rod examples. However, it does appear we have identified another definite rod variation. The question remains - is it original? Or is it...

 

I would like to know if Greg and SIG can find a pin that holds the jag end on the rod shaft. Or is this a one piece rod? I only posted the jag end. If you will go back to the original posts you will note there is a pretty good gap between the loop end and the shaft. Of course, the slot ends are perfectly rounded. This should give everyone some good characteristics to look for when comparing it with that long cleaning rod in your hard case. Who has a rod like it with impeccable provenance?

 

Comments???

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Board member ron_brock supplied the below pictures of his Gordon Herigstad reproduction long cleaning rod. This is a beautiful cleaning rod, a quality reproduction. Note the tarnish and the start of some patina. I predict these long cleaning rods will cause a lot of problem for future collectors in the years ahead.

 

Gordon 1.JPG Gordon 2.JPG

Gordon 3.JPG Gordon 4.JPG

Gordon 5.JPG Gordon 6.JPG

Gordon 7.JPG Gordon 8.JPG

 

Pay special attention of how the jag is pinned to the rod shaft. It is a blind pin; the finish of the pin head mated to the jag is perfect. Go back and view the original rods posted earlier in this thread and see how the finish of the pin head is irregular, certainly not perfect.

 

Shown below are some pictures of an original rod and a Gordon repro rod provided by Board member DLansky. Note the finish of the pin head on the original rod.

 

Lansky 1.jpg Lansky 2.jpg

Lansky 3.jpg

 

A big thank you to Ron and David for helping all of us learn about this Colt era accessory...and modern day reproduction.

 

 

 

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  • 4 months later...
  • 3 years later...

I was talking with TD today about some cleaning rods that I found in all this stuff around here. He noted that this subject was ongoing and really never resolved, so I thought I might post some pics and info on three original cleaning rods (I think) that I have. All three came from weapons that I bought many years ago. All three were in hard cases with weapons, but I can only remember the serial number of one for sure. That is #9760. I probably should have done a better job of tagging them but I didn't. I will describe them per the tags.

 

The one with the orange tag (#1) is one that GH tried to buy from me for $800 way back when. Confirmed that it was an original. 20.25" in length. Patch slot is "squared". Small "bump" on the end of the rod where it is looped to the main shaft. Tip is pinned to the rod. Can't remember which case it came in.

 

#2 is the rod with the white tag on it. It came out the case that housed Colt #9760, the Texas Ranger weapon that was auctioned off in May of 1984. It has been in the case so long that you can see the mark that the leather strap left on the handle / loop. Also 20.25" in length with a squared patch slot. The end of the rod on this one where it loops against the main shaft is smooth. No "bump". The tip is also pinned to the rod.

 

#3 is a cleaning rod that I got out of an old case as well. No tag. It is 16.5" in length with a square patch slot. Tip is pinned to the shaft and the loop that comes around against the main shaft has the same "bump" as rod #1. This "bump" was created when the brass rod was cut off in a lathe as was #1.

 

Can't tell you why #2 does not have this bump unless it was saw cut, ground or polished off after it was cut from round stock. BTW, all three were cut from .25" brass rod. Other observations are that the very forward end of flat area (OD) of the boss of the cleaning tip on rod #1 is .25" (1/4"). The other two are .3125" (5/16") and are identical. Another observation is that on both of the 20.25" rods is that the back end of the cleaning tip is .50" from the square slot. On the shorter 16.5" rod, it is .325" from the back end of the cleaning tip to the squared slot. The last observation is that the cleaning patch slots are not exactly 100% square. They all three seem to have a small radius on the patch slot. Just a very small radius. I didn't have a micrometer so I used a tape measure and the SWAG method for the dimensions that I am giving you. Jpegs attached.

cleaning rods(1).JPG

cleaning rods(2).JPG

cleaning rods tips.JPG

cleaning rod 1.JPG

cleaning rod 2.JPG

cleaning rod 3.JPG

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I found one on EBay back in 2005 (?) and bought it. It was 21.25" long, had the bump in the loop end and a squared slot. It has a visible pin through the patch jag end and appeared a bit more rounded at the very tip. As stated in this string, the tips may have worked loose on some as this tip has been fluxed and sweat-soldered on. It also has visible rifling marks, having been used a bit.

 

Not sure if it was original, I brought it to the TCA shoot at Tracy's that year and after looking at it closely, he said he fully believed it was an original.

 

I recall speaking with Gordon Herigstad about it at the SAR show in Phoenix in 2007(?) And he told me that based on his research, the patch slot was cut with a mill bit and then broached square at both ends, one end at a time (this to better hold the patch and prevent it from slipping out of the slot). Guess it's easily possible to believe that one end may have been skipped or a few for through with both ends rounded if made toward the end of the day or on a Friday ;) but he didn't elaborate on that theory. Also possible to believe that the square broach cuts could have been dropped to cut production costs?

 

Not owning a '21, I sold it a short while later to fund another gun purchase.

I am headed out of town for a 3 week road trip today but I do have a picture file archived somewhere and will dig it out when we return.

 

john

Edited by john
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"It also has visible rifling marks, having been used a bit."

 

You know I didn't think about it until you stated that. I thought someone had buffed the OD of the cleaning tip a little or polished it somehow. Those marks are from the rifling in the bore.

 

Thanks

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Here are some additional pictures of a rod with the thicker diameter "Jag" and rounded patch slot as shown in some previous examples (See TD Post # 28). This rod also does not appear to have the "dimpled" end where it was cut and also has the "Jag" pinned to the rod. I purchased the rod off an Internet site several years ago that advertised it as having been found in a large lot of WWII brass rods. It appears to me to be identical to some of the earlier examples shown here.

 

Cleaning Rod-1.jpg Cleaning Rod-3.jpg Cleaning Rod-2.jpg Cleaning Rod-5.jpg Cleaning Rod-6.jpg

 

Pinned Jag C/U Pinned Jag Rod End Rod End Herigstad Reproduction for reference.

Edited by gijive
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The latest additions to this thread are excellent. Thank you!!! This is one project I started and did not finish. I was waiting for some pictures of some cleaning rods from a federal law enforcement organization that never came. While waiting, I moved on to other things (Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story) and never returned. I do plan on working on this sometime in the future. However, there is a lot of information very useful to Board members already posted.

 

If you have a long cleaning rod with some great provenance, i.e., known to exist long before the reproductions started to appear, please post pictures. The important parts are the length, loop end, especially at end of the loop, jag end (length and pinned???) and slot shape. Look at aut-ord-co's post number 5 & 7 for examples of the picture information needed.

 

One thing I have observed that may or may not be relevant or true at the end of this study is the Herigstad reproduction rod is almost too perfect. I believe Gordon believed there was only one original long rod type. If you know that Gordon believed otherwise, please let us know. While I was very disappointed Gordon did not mark his reproduction cleaning rods (or Spare Part Kits), I do miss him.

 

In addition, and Board Member firearm touched on this, above. If you have a short cleaning rod (16.5 inches) whose known provenance extends before World War II, let us know and post some pictures. Yes, I believe AOC sold or included the "short" cleaning rod with each Thompson sale long before what we call the long cleaning appeared.

 

Search your collection. What do you have that would add to the story?

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FWIW, the Roger Cox, "Thompson Submachine Gun" book on page 35, under "Cleaning Rods and Oil Cans" with recites, in part, "Original brass cleaning rods, manufactured by Colt, are solid brass. Two models exist, a long model which will fit into the top of a hard case and a short model which fits the canvas carrying case. The long model is by far the rarer variation.

The military procured brass and steel Thompson cleaning rods during World War II. The brass rods are standard short model rods which are impossible to distinguish from Colt rods of 1921."


On page 40, in the lower right there is a photo captioned, "Thompson cleaning rod variations,...(1) long model brass commercial, (2) short model brass commercial, (3) steel military model."

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  • 1 year later...

All,

 

Bumping this back up as a result of recently obtaining a long rod which was being offered on Ebay at a "Buy It Now" price I couldn't pass up. It was worth the price just for research purposes. When I received it, I measured and found it was exactly 21 inches long, 3/4" longer than the other rod I pictured in Post # 35, which I believe to be original. It has the "bump" on the loop end where it was cut, has rounded ends to the patch slot and has the slimmer contour "jag", although with no visible pin. It has some of the characteristics of rods previously shown in this thread, but some of the rods weren't measured for length. I wonder of some of the other rods pictured are 21" in length. Below are pictures for comparison:

 

Long Cleaning Rod-21 inches-1.jpg Long Cleaning Rods-Length Comparison.jpg

 

Long cleaning rod 21 inches Comparison of long rods, 21 inches and 20.25 inches

 

Long Cleaning Rod-21 inches-2.jpg Long Cleaning Rod-20.25 inches-Pinned Jag.jpg

 

21 inch cleaning rod "jag" end detail 20.25 inch cleaning rod "jag" end detail

 

Long Cleaning Rod-21 inches-3.jpg Long Cleaning Rod-20.25 inches-Closed Loop.jpg

 

21 inch cleaning rod with loop end bump 20.25 inch cleaning rod with closed loop end

 

Long Cleaning Rods-Jag Comparison.jpg

 

Long cleaning rods "jag" comparison

 

Seems there are several variations of the long cleaning rod.

 

 

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  • 3 years later...

Hey all.

Had thoughts of selling off some stuff I'll never need and found a long cleaning rod.

Per this string and additions on March 13,  2014 by TD, it almost certainly is a Terry Williams rod, being absolutely identical to pics he posted of his examples, right down to the polishing marks around the patch slot, round end of the rod on the loop end and flat front of the jag.

I bought this at the last TCA show and shoot at the Hill home (before TATA) from Warren Kreiser and I recall he told me all about it, but with all the Thompson stuff around whatever he said went in one ear and out the other.

He had another rod on the table that was $100 or $110 but I didn't have the cash for that (believe that one was tagged as an original ?😱 )

I will post pics of this example as I can but it is exactly like the ones TD posted .

My question is, what might these Williams repros be worth nowadays?

It was mentioned in a post back somewhere in this string that the Williams rods were maybe worth the same as Gordons repops (back then $100 or so was given at that time?) But......what might it be worth now? Seems Gordons cleaning rods are fetching crazy money now.

Any thoughts?

 

Edited by john
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john,

I have not seen what I call a Terry Williams reproduction long cleaning rod for sale in several years. The Gordon reproduction long cleaning rods initially retailed for $110 and later sold on ebay for around $60 after he passed. I know International Military Antiques (IMA) was offering a reproduction long cleaning rod as part of their hardcase package in the past, but these appear sold out. 

I would guess the value of a Williams rod would be somewhere between $25 to $50 for someone wanting a display piece for a hardcase. Hopefully, others will join in and discuss, especially if they know of a current source for reproduction long cleaning rods.

I finally finished my research on the Colt era long cleaning rods. This will be a chapter in my upcoming book. 

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Chapter #4 in the continuum, How long is your Rod...

$50 bucks worth.. i see this one has gone on over 6 years. that's a pretty long run..soon coming to the END.

great work and info from all who attended.post-504-0-65208200-1605552076_thumb.jpgthis is from my 1968 non import marked PPK rig. they even threw in a rod in the box.  

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Very nice Ron. Is that a 32 or a 380? Nice holster, did that come with it? Mine is a minty '65 in 380, don't have the cleaning rod though.

Edited by Mike Hammer
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On 2/10/2023 at 1:36 PM, john said:

Hey all.

Had thoughts of selling off some stuff I'll never need and found a long cleaning rod.

Per this string and additions on March 13,  2014 by TD, it almost certainly is a Terry Williams rod, being absolutely identical to pics he posted of his examples, right down to the polishing marks around the patch slot, round end of the rod on the loop end and flat front of the jag.

I bought this at the last TCA show and shoot at the Hill home (before TATA) from Warren Kreiser and I recall he told me all about it, but with all the Thompson stuff around whatever he said went in one ear and out the other.

He had another rod on the table that was $100 or $110 but I didn't have the cash for that (believe that one was tagged as an original ?😱 )

I will post pics of this example as I can but it is exactly like the ones TD posted .

My question is, what might these Williams repros be worth nowadays?

It was mentioned in a post back somewhere in this string that the Williams rods were maybe worth the same as Gordons repops (back then $100 or so was given at that time?) But......what might it be worth now? Seems Gordons cleaning rods are fetching crazy money now.

Any thoughts?

 

John, I’d give you $25 for the Terry Williams cleaning rod. It would go with my 1928A1 that I acquired from Terry Williams a long long time ago.

I suspect you may have paid $25-50 when you bought it from Warren Kreisler?

You just need a Fox hard case to put the cleaning rod in.

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10 hours ago, Mike Hammer said:

Very nice Ron. Is that a 32 or a 380? Nice holster, did that come with it? Mine is a minty '65 in 380, don't have the cleaning rod though.

Mike it was a 380 cal. legacy arms bought the whole rig from me for $2,500.00 also had a 32 cal in the Marines sold that one in 1972 found the receipt the other day in a gun case.To a buddy in Cicero.I had dozens afterward all long sold off. I do miss my 1968 all gold Engraved with white grips. that one i traded for a broomhandle  Mauser Schnellfeuer or what you called them.That went to a guy in Colorado.Just spreading the love. 

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