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Can a Dealer Cancel a Form 4 After Approved?


huggytree
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I have an approved form 4 on a gun. Its at the dealer/manufacturer. There's an issue. Can he cancel my form 4? or do i own the gun and have legal right to it? or can he do something with the atf to take it back without my signature?

 

ive had endless headaches over the years with various guns and its down to 1 last one. im trying to settle it and hope it settles itself without drama

 

ive got to call the atf tomorrow to discuss, but im not sure they wish to deal with any local issues.

 

 

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I'm not sure of the details, but is the question "who owns the gun?" I've seen conflicting information before about ownership given the transfer process. One dealer told me some time ago, related to an inquiry into a 50/50 deal, that once ATF approved the transfer I would own the gun so he wasn't able to do a 50/50 deal. This is contrary to many other examples. I've also seen it said that paying for and owning the gun is a separate issue from the transfer process. You buy it and it belongs to you, but ATF of course still has to approve the transfer before you take possession. If this is the question, I'd be interested in other opinions on the answer.

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i cant get into details at this point.....the stamp is in my name..dealer/manufacturer has my stamp...im getting a certified copy of the stamp....work is started and not complete(no work may have been done yet after 1.5+ years). I have not paid in full. so who owns a 1/2 done gun? guy is slow to communicate and may not communicate further.

 

form 4 is in my name and transfer complete. yet money is owed on the gun..how much is owed is completely unknown as gun may still be just a tube. who owns the gun?

 

i have asked for a refund in full and i will move on. but if the guy wont communicate what is my next step?

 

if i own the gun due to the stamp then my next move is easy. get possession of whatever is done. whether a blank tube or a partial gun. if the stamp = nothing than i am even more screwed. Im hoping again that the situation will resolve it self as the guy is someone i consider a friend, but obviously after 1.5+ years there is more going on here.

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The way I read the regulations, the key is whether or not you have taken possession. Even though the form 4 was approved, if you never took possession then you or the transferor can request that the ATF cancel the transfer. You can also request a refund of the $200 tax. Ownership is not specifically addressed in this reg. That point is more between you and the seller, based on the terms of sale.

 

https://regulations.atf.gov/479-172/2016-00192#479-172

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thanks...i knew there was a grey area in there.....im looking into it further and have 4 different options to try out, from subtle to all out. ill be visiting him at his house soon since he wont return calls.

 

 

face to face it may work itself out

 

easy to ignore an email/phone call/ letter. not so easy to ignore a knock on the door

 

the contract i have is very basic, more of a gentleman's agreement than an intense legal document. 1 step further than just a hand shake basically. which in the NFA world is typically how things are done. Honor/Trust/Ethics are what all of us have and expect from the ones we deal with. Due to the goofy form 4 rules of pay first, receive 7 months later requires it.

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Basic business law elements of a (legally binding) contract:

 

1: Offer,

2. Acceptance,

3. Consideration,

4. Capacity of the parties, and

5. Legality of purpose.

 

If there's a breach of contract you may have a cause of action if you are unable to informally resolve. I think this is the bottom line.

 

I think I would be concerned if BATF had approved a transfer to me and I didn't have the firearm in my possession (unless I sent it to an appropriate gunsmith to be worked on with a copy of the BATF Form). I seem to recall something in the regulations that it must be transferred to you as soon as practical upon receipt of the stamp, or something to that effect.

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If the form was approved very recently atf at their discretion could issue a refund under certain circumstances......they don't have to since the stamp is affixed and cancelled. You are part owner apparently? The details of the finances will have to worked out civilly either in court or by further agreement. ATF won't step in since it's purely just a contractual issue. In this case the gun was transferred to you and is effectually in for repair so it's going to be your issue to pay for another transfer to get rid of it, work it out, or make a new deal on a partially completed gun? You knew he was slow so I'd say you'll have to take 70% of the blame? Look on the bright side, often when these things are finally complete they generally have a much higher value? The other upside is when/if he finally finishes it, it's highly likely it will work, unlike some other stuff you've bought? HTH

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didnt know he was slow

 

promise was end of summer 2017

 

i took him at his word

 

still may work itself out...others in the same boat who have paid in full.....ive got several options, but im hoping a simple refund and walk away will work out. I cant fix anything with someone who wont communicate back. more serious solutions may have to happen...hopefully not....the situation of being nice is close to an end for me.

 

i know some of you know the person im talking about

 

ugghhhh and (sigh)

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Basic business law elements of a (legally binding) contract:

 

1: Offer,

2. Acceptance,

3. Consideration,

4. Capacity of the parties, and

5. Legality of purpose.

 

If there's a breach of contract you may have a cause of action if you are unable to informally resolve. I think this is the bottom line.

 

I think I would be concerned if BATF had approved a transfer to me and I didn't have the firearm in my possession (unless I sent it to an appropriate gunsmith to be worked on with a copy of the BATF Form). I seem to recall something in the regulations that it must be transferred to you as soon as practical upon receipt of the stamp, or something to that effect.

 

yes but that = $1000+ in fees and potentially years of waiting.

 

i consider this person to be a friend who is just over his head or w/ health issues....but lack of communication (which its always been) is giving me fewer nice guy options

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If you took possession, there is no cancel.

 

If you did not take possession, return the original form with stamp attached, include a signed/dated statement the transfer never occurred, and request a refund. Needless to say it's under penalty of perjury.

 

ATF does not regulate ownership, only possession. Finances are your business and disputes over ownership, payments, etc. are outside the purview of either the NFA or GCA.

Edited by The Lone Ranger
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i have included the $200 i spent on the stamp as part of what i wish to recover from this...to transfer back to the previous owner does he even need my signature?

 

hope to have a resolution and end this this week...otherwise its going to court

 

19 months since i put a down payment on it 13+ months since it was due to be complete. at some point you have to pull the plug and realize it isnt ever going to get done and move on.

Edited by huggytree
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were now at that point....a cancellation of the form 4 is being attempted...so i will find out if a signature is needed...ive gotten many different opinions on this now.

 

i offered to sign the form 4 over to the maker today..that offer was declined in favor of canceling it out.

 

i would assume to cancel, its a letter and 30 days to respond?

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From the Form 4 Instructions: "Cancellation of Approved Application. The transferor may cancel an approved application only if the physical transfer of the firearm has not been completed. The transferor must return the approved application with the original tax stamp affixed with a written request for cancellation, citing the need and that the physical transfer of the firearm did not take place. The request shall be directed to the Chief, NFA Division, 244 Needy Road, Martinsburg, WV. 25405. The NFA Division will arrange for a refund of the tax paid."

 

TLDR, if the physical transfer hasn't taken place, the transferor can cancel the approved Form 4.

Edited by MontanaRenegade86
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the good news is i can get my $200 back.....still hoping this situation will work it self out clean.

 

its very frustrating when you have to sit and wait even more for the maker to end it clean or the small claims process to work itself out.

 

Im still hopeful for a clean ending in the next couple months vs being dragged kicking and screaming into a refund.

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