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US Marked Model 12


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"Do these markings look faked?

 

I believe the proof marks are real. But that shotgun has several issues including a WB marked riot gun stock with no sling swivel, a missing bayonet adaptor screw, and a "W" marked adaptor which would most likely be a replacement adaptor on a gun in that serial number range.

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The Morphy August 13th auction has 2 "trench guns" but the catalogue pix are insufficient to say the least.

Lot 3478 is a model 12 https://issuu.com/morphyauctions/docs/flipdoc_aug_11-13_firearms/642

Lot 3479 is an 1897 https://issuu.com/morphyauctions/docs/flipdoc_aug_11-13_firearms/644

 

I'll leave it to the experts whether they're real or not, pretty sure Morphy's neither knows nor cares

Edited by StrangeRanger
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"Do these markings look faked?

 

I believe the proof marks are real. But that shotgun has several issues including a WB marked riot gun stock with no sling swivel, a missing bayonet adaptor screw, and a "W" marked adaptor which would most likely be a replacement adaptor on a gun in that serial number range.

Agreed Edited by Petroleum 1
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The Morphys Winchester trench guns are nice but only for the right price. The model 12 bayonet adaptor and shield has a very newish look to it and should be W marked being late war 1944 mfg. The park finish is correct especially with the RIA marking on the stock. I would ask what the two digit stamp is on the barrel.

The model 97 imo is a riot conversion. That gun should have a 6 hole early war shroud the one on the gun is a late war W stamped 4 hole assembly. Also the take down holes are still in the magazine tube which would indicate this was a riot gun originally.

Edited by Petroleum 1
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Do the original trench guns still have the take down holes in the mag tube or did Winchester make a special tube for the trench gun mount. Here is a nice 97 trench advertised as the real thing but looking at the pic of the bayonet mount i can see the big takedown hole in the tube so this gun must be a riot conversion but the serial number puts it in the trench gun production range?? I guess the mag tube could have been replaced along the way with a riot type?

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/875852850

Edited by Petroleum 1
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Not a trench model but a like new Model 1897 riot gun circa 1916. Wow

 

https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/875704402

 

Nice, but sometimes too nice. I have one slightly nicer about 1000 away ser. number that I was on the fence about it being refinished. After seeing this one, I'm now 70% that mine is refinished and 95% that this one is. The butt stock has been redone for sure, if it's even original? Satin finish was not a WWI option. They don't bring anywhere near that kind of money.....that's trench gun kind of money.

I started a micro collection of riots mainly because they are less faked because the money is not there.....yet.

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Not a trench model but a like new Model 1897 riot gun circa 1916. Wow

 

https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/875704402

Nice, but sometimes too nice. I have one slightly nicer about 1000 away ser. number that I was on the fence about it being refinished. After seeing this one, I'm now 70% that mine is refinished and 95% that this one is. The butt stock has been redone for sure, if it's even original? Satin finish was not a WWI option. They don't bring anywhere near that kind of money.....that's trench gun kind of money.

I started a micro collection of riots mainly because they are less faked because the money is not there.....yet.

I agree i have seen some decent all original military riots for normal money. I might end up with one of those.

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  • 1 year later...

Do any of you all know much about this particular Model 12 (see photos below) ? It has US stamped on the receiver and some markings on the stock. The barrel is about 26-27 inches long and is a full choke. It is in good shape, but living here in the Florida Keys with all the recent hurricanes I am getting rid of a lot of my stuff before the next hurricane takes it all.

 

Don

 

 

 

post-282093-0-23458200-1641141707_thumb.jpgpost-282093-0-26777200-1641141716_thumb.jpgpost-282093-0-31388600-1641141728_thumb.jpgpost-282093-0-17537700-1641141739_thumb.jpg

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There were some early WW2 Model 12s that were marked like your shotgun with only the large "U.S." on the left side of the receiver. They also usually have the WB and Ordnance mark on the stock. These usually fall into the low 900,xxx serial number range.

 

Does your shotgun have an Ordnance bomb on top of the barrel near the receiver? And what is the serial number of your gun?

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I thought it was a big number also. It is on the bottom of the receiver and not stamped on. It looks like it was done with some sort of engraving tool. I just noticed another number on the bottom of the receiver, which is stamped on: 906008 Sorry about that--I should have looked closer. Don

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I thought it was a big number also. It is on the bottom of the receiver and not stamped on. It looks like it was done with some sort of engraving tool. I just noticed another number on the bottom of the receiver, which is stamped on: 906008 Sorry about that--I should have looked closer. Don

 

Don, it looks like your model 12 was produced in 1941, according to the tables linked below.

 

Besides trench and riot guns, model 12s were procured for use in air gunnery training. These guns had the full-length barrels seen on your Model 12. Good looking gun!

 

McHenry Sportsmen's Club - Winchester Model 12 Serial Numbers (mchenry-sc.org)

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I thought it was a big number also. It is on the bottom of the receiver and not stamped on. It looks like it was done with some sort of engraving tool. I just noticed another number on the bottom of the receiver, which is stamped on: 906008 Sorry about that--I should have looked closer. Don

 

Don, it looks like your model 12 was produced in 1941, according to the tables linked below.

 

Besides trench and riot guns, model 12s were procured for use in air gunnery training. These guns had the full-length barrels seen on your Model 12. Good looking gun!

 

McHenry Sportsmen's Club - Winchester Model 12 Serial Numbers (mchenry-sc.org)

 

Like most of the Winchester production date/serial number tables floating around today, this one is badly flawed. When WWII Model 12 production ceased in 1944, serial numbers were into the 1,036,000 range. The table shows that those guns were made in 1947. It is just as bad with the WWI Model 1897 trench gun serial numbers. Most of the tables show the WWI guns being manufactured in 1920-1922.

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