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Marlin, Marlen, Mariline,......


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#1 kanister

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 10:23 AM

Many UD M42 were parachuted to Italian Partisans from January 1945 till the end of the war.

 

Attached File  UD m 42 - DF 4 CJO 6.JPG   47.22K   29 downloadsAttached File  udm42 Brig. Gar. volante Severino.jpg   104.71K   34 downloadsAttached File  udm42 F.78 GIM 2c RT 23a.JPG   70.22K   39 downloadsAttached File  udm 42 F.78A.JPG   48.3K   30 downloads (Here sono pictures from the Genoa area)

 

We know that the writing on the gun tells United Defense...... but the partisans caled them in many different way: Marlin (right), Marlen, Mariline, Marilene, Marleen ( perhaps they thought of Lily Marleen.....)..... and many others.

 

My stupid question is: where found they the name Marlin to call them with the right name of the factory that produced them?


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#2 timkel

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 11:05 AM

United Defence M42 very nice.

Your answers here:

https://en.wikipedia...ted_Defense_M42


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#3 kanister

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 01:39 PM

Yes, I know that the Marlin produced the UD.

But my question was: who told to the Italian partisans (many of them can't even read) that it was a "Marlin".

On the receiver, on the barrel and on the magazines there was writed "United Defence......"


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#4 gunhistorian

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Posted 22 August 2015 - 08:58 AM

It is NOT a stupid question and is a very valid one!  I don't know how these guns were wrapped when dropped, but it is possible that some parts of the packaging were marked "Marlin Firearms Co." or something similar.  Alternatively, it is possible that this is what the guns were called by OSS personnel attached to various partisan groups.  I'm not sure if there is an answer to this question in any of the literature (reference books) on OSS weapons or the UD weapons.  My guess is that the term "Marlin" gun came from the OSS, either through communications ("We are dropping X number of Marlin submachine guns tonight") or through OSS "advisers" in the field who were told (by the supply people) that these were "Marlin guns".


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#5 kanister

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Posted 22 August 2015 - 11:02 AM

Yes, it's possible.

 

On the book "The bandits of Cisterna" by W. Pickering the "Marlin" is very valued. The author was a SOE member that was sent on the Langhe area (Piedmont) on February 1945.

But not always there was an adviser to tell to partisans that the gun was a "Marlin".

 

And also the M3 that they received were called "Smith": where took they this nickname?


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#6 gunhistorian

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 09:50 PM

This is just a wild guess as to why the M-3 "grease gun" was called a "Smith".  It is possible that some of the partisan groups were led by British S.O.,E.  It is known that the British purchased a number of Smith & Wesson "Light Rifles", caliber .45 acp.  These looked somewhat like a sub-machine gun (some sources credit this weapon as "saving" S&W from bankruptcy -- due to the British order).  While fable has it that the British scrapped this weapon -- purportedly dumping them in to either the sea or the English Channel -- there is a fair amount of evidence that the S&W Light Rifles were sold to the Dutch.  The British (Great Britain) was "responsible" for supplying the Dutch, and the Netherlands was one of the last countries to be added to the Lend-Lease Act.  (There might be some economic as well as geopolitical implications here, as the Dutch maintained economic viability despite the invasion of the Netherlands and the Netherlands East Indies.)  It is possible that some of the S&W Light Rifles were acquired by S.O.,E. for training purposes and some of the British members of S.O.,E. mistook the "grease gun" for a "new, improved" model of the Light Rifle.  There are many "mis-identifications" of various U.S. weapons in war-time and immediate post-war British writings, particularly by some of those who should have known better.  This is just a guess, but it does make some sense -- probably as good a guess as anything else.


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#7 kanister

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 07:39 AM

Thank for your guess.

I think rather to a corruption of a name or abbreviation on the local dialect, like the Marlin that became Marleen or Mariline, but i don't know from what world they started.


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#8 gunhistorian

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 09:45 AM

Whoops!  I might have made a mistake in the caliber of the S&W Light Rifle!  (Old age!)  On review, I think -- but can't remember -- that this was a 9-mm piece.  Have to look it up on the 'Net.  


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#9 kanister

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 10:26 AM

And this one is the result of the whole "affair" between the S&W and the English Government:

 

Attached File  b.JPG   158.61K   9 downloadsAttached File  g.JPG   86.42K   11 downloadsAttached File  P1050450.JPG   121.7K   9 downloads


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#10 gunhistorian

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Posted 25 August 2015 - 08:38 PM

M1917?  Very nice piece!    


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#11 kanister

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 02:42 AM

It's a Military & Polce model and It's in .38/200 caliber, with plain English marking.

When was clear that the S&W could not deliver the 9mm carbine the English government chose to buy this gun.


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#12 AlanDavid

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 04:58 AM

This is just a wild guess as to why the M-3 "grease gun" was called a "Smith".  It is possible that some of the partisan groups were led by British S.O.,E.  It is known that the British purchased a number of Smith & Wesson "Light Rifles", caliber .45 acp.  These looked somewhat like a sub-machine gun (some sources credit this weapon as "saving" S&W from bankruptcy -- due to the British order).  While fable has it that the British scrapped this weapon -- purportedly dumping them in to either the sea or the English Channel -- there is a fair amount of evidence that the S&W Light Rifles were sold to the Dutch.  The British (Great Britain) was "responsible" for supplying the Dutch, and the Netherlands was one of the last countries to be added to the Lend-Lease Act.  (There might be some economic as well as geopolitical implications here, as the Dutch maintained economic viability despite the invasion of the Netherlands and the Netherlands East Indies.)  It is possible that some of the S&W Light Rifles were acquired by S.O.,E. for training purposes and some of the British members of S.O.,E. mistook the "grease gun" for a "new, improved" model of the Light Rifle.  There are many "mis-identifications" of various U.S. weapons in war-time and immediate post-war British writings, particularly by some of those who should have known better.  This is just a guess, but it does make some sense -- probably as good a guess as anything else.

Gunhistorian

 

Do you have a source for S&W 9mm Light Rifles being sold or given to the Dutch.?

 

Regards

 

AlanD

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#13 kanister

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 06:50 AM

Perhaps a little confusion between UDM42 and S&W mod. 40.

The connection with the Dutch Government is clear for the UDM42, while is very difficult for the S&W.

 

I find this on the Nelson & Musgrave book " The world's machine pistols and SMG, vol II":

 

 

The Model 76 was not Smith & Wesson's first venture into the submachine gun field. In 1939 the company had made a rather costly light rifle; this weapon, designated the Model 1940, was totally machined, and was extremely expensive to manufacture even in those days. It is reported that only 1010 units of the Model 1940 light rifle designated "Light Rifle Model of 1940" were produced, and of these, 850 were shipped to England for testing and evaluation. After arriving in England, and before the tests, the majority of these guns were destroyed by a direct bomb hit on the depot in which they were being held. Fewer than 200 of these weapons are known to exist today. The Model 1940 is illustrated in this section, and detailed coverage of the gun is given in Volume I of this series.


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#14 gunhistorian

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 03:15 PM

To AlanD: The source for S&W Light Rifles being given to or sold to the Dutch (for use in the Netherlands East Indies) comes from MOD (or is it Ministry of War) files at the Public Records Office (now National Archives), Kew Gardens, G.B.  My filing system is a mess after a couple of "relocations" but if you need more specific info, let me know (p.m. me).  it might take me some time to find the documents in the chaos!  If I recall correctly, there is a file section (I'm not familiar with the filing system used by the P.R.O.) on British supplies to the N.E.I.  I also have a half-way decent account of the 7.62 Russian caliber Hotchkiss guns remanufactured by Van Karner in NYC (and ammo) sold to the Netherlands Purchasing Commission.  Guess I'm a collector of trivial information!  LOL.


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#15 gunhistorian

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 03:24 PM

More for AlanD.: According to P.R.O. (sorry!  I'm too used to using that abbreviation rather than the National Archives -- which to chauvinistic me -- is headquartered in Washington, DC) records the British also supplied the Dutch -- I believe for use in the N.E.I. -- with materiel captured in North Africa, presumably mostly Italian small arms and small arms ammo.  I don't have any records indicating that this stuff, including the S&W Light Rifles, was ever shipped.  There is some indication on a British website (can't remember the name but there are publications from -- again, this might not be accurate -- the Historical Small Arms Association) that the British did distribute the Light Rifles, apparently mostly to the Royal Navy.  If that is the case, then the Dutch were either over-run before shipments could take place or the Dutch refused the offer. . .there is a possibility that the S&Ws were to be shipped directly from S&W to the Dutch but "on account of" the British order, which might have been cancelled due to the Dutch no longer needing the weapons.


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#16 AlanDavid

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Posted 30 August 2015 - 04:55 AM

I am glad to read you are a collector of trivial information! Sometimes it can take donkeys years for a couple of pieces of information to come together and solve a puzzle or dispel an urban myth.

 

I am aware of the info on the Historical Breech Loading Small arms Association, I supplied quite a lot of the info, particularly that relating to the use of the Light Rifle by the Royal Navy.

 

I hope to spend a few days in the National Achieves in Kew, London in October and will see if I can did up.

 

PM sent.

 

Regards

 

AlanD

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