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WW1 1897 trench gun on GB


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#1 Petroleum 1

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Posted 18 November 2020 - 07:29 AM

According to Bruce's book this gun is well outside the WW1 sn range but the seller provides a piece of paper with a sn range that exactly matches the gun for sale. Its a great looking piece but idk about that 1920 serial number...hmmm  

 

https://www.gunbroke.../Item/884650107


Edited by Petroleum 1, 18 November 2020 - 07:30 AM.

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#2 StrangeRanger

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Posted 18 November 2020 - 07:50 AM

"WWI era" can stretch the time frame a bit beyond WWI, in this case all the way to 1920.


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#3 Petroleum 1

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Posted 18 November 2020 - 07:59 AM

How about this one...same seller

 

 

https://www.gunbroke.../item/884692847


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#4 Kilroy

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Posted 18 November 2020 - 11:52 AM


According to Bruce's book this gun is well outside the WW1 sn range but the seller provides a piece of paper with a sn range that exactly matches the gun for sale. Its a great looking piece but idk about that 1920 serial number...hmmm  

 

https://www.gunbroke.../Item/884650107


The flaming bomb stamp on the receiver and top of the barrel are not genuine either. Enough said. 


Edited by Kilroy, 18 November 2020 - 11:55 AM.

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#5 Kilroy

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Posted 18 November 2020 - 11:55 AM

How about this one...same seller

 

 

https://www.gunbroke.../item/884692847


markings on this one look fraudulent as well. I guess his disclaimer is here:

"This one appears to be commercial production 97 that was converted by the U.S. Government for the war effort…..the Joe Poyer book states that an unknown number of commercial 97’s may have been acquired and converted to trench and riot guns during the early part of WWII to fill the needs of our troops."

Edited by Kilroy, 18 November 2020 - 11:59 AM.

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#6 Petroleum 1

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Posted 18 November 2020 - 12:02 PM

I agree 100% both are faked. Also the mfg dates are out of line. I dont care what bs story he has. The guns look great and certainly do have value but there are too many red flags popping up in my head.
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#7 Tom D

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Posted 18 November 2020 - 01:36 PM

The markings on both guns are indeed fake.  Although the earlier gun (sn 733016) is a 1920 gun, it is possible it was assembled as a trench gun, but not under government contract.  I know of two other 1920 trench guns.  One is in the 744xxx serial number range.  The second gun is in the 720xxx serial number range and was part of the Pugsley Collection owned by Winchester.  It is now owned by a private collector.  Neither of these trench guns were martially marked. 

 

And keep in mind that there were commercial Model 1897 trench guns that were made for law enforcement between the WWI and WWII.  Many of these are in the 800,000 range.


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#8 Petroleum 1

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Posted 18 November 2020 - 03:44 PM

Tom...who would have assembled a law enforcement trench gun in the 1920s? Winchester factory? The military contract ran from 1917-1919.
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#9 Tom D

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Posted 18 November 2020 - 04:24 PM

The Pugsley Collection trench gun would certainly have been assembled by Winchester.  


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#10 Bruce Canfield

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Posted 18 November 2020 - 06:54 PM

The serial number is well beyond the range for any observed original WWI contract M1897 trench gun.  Winchester was not making military trench guns in 1920.  Manufacturers, including Winchester, were allowed to complete any guns that were "in process" shortly after the Armistice but those completed in early to mid 1919.


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#11 TSMGguy

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Posted 19 November 2020 - 07:49 AM

I always wonder how every screw slot on supposedly "original" guns gets damaged and burred. It didn't happen during depot rebuild.   


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#12 Petroleum 1

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Posted 19 November 2020 - 03:40 PM

The seller is local here in AZ i told him they were nice Guns but faked he says he knows nothing about the guns just brokering an estate sale.
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#13 StrangeRanger

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Posted 19 November 2020 - 04:08 PM

...and Bill never had sex with Monica


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#14 Petroleum 1

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Posted 19 November 2020 - 07:02 PM

...and Bill never had sex with Monica

hmmm...lol


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#15 Brick Davis

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 11:27 PM

Yikes!  Looks like both went for a pretty penny. 


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#16 Petroleum 1

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Posted 25 November 2020 - 07:58 AM


Yikes!  Looks like both went for a pretty penny. 

Yup...both clearly put together trench guns with faked markings and all. Uneducated buyers i guess.I did see a norinco trench with a Remington bayonet go for over 4K with some heavy bidding about 6 months ago.

Edited by Petroleum 1, 25 November 2020 - 08:01 AM.

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#17 StrangeRanger

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Posted 25 November 2020 - 09:03 AM

I'm regularly seeing $1K asking prices for the Norinco 97 trench guns.  I just cannot wrap my head around that one.  There seems to be a whole universe of counterfeits, clones, scams and stupid buyers out there.


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#18 Petroleum 1

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Posted 25 November 2020 - 09:28 AM


I'm regularly seeing $1K asking prices for the Norinco 97 trench guns.  I just cannot wrap my head around that one.  There seems to be a whole universe of counterfeits, clones, scams and stupid buyers out there.


I cant understand the made in China norinco thing either. There are plenty of real New Haven Conn made model 97 guns out there that can be converted to trench models instead of having the made in China stamping on it. Ugh
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#19 TSMGguy

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Posted 25 November 2020 - 11:45 AM

About the worst thing I can say about the Norinco M97s is that they work well. I bought two new when they came out. Can't remember what I paid for them, but they were very inexpensive.  Both are still in their original boxes. Looks like now would be a good time to sell!


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#20 StrangeRanger

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Posted 25 November 2020 - 12:30 PM

Can you say chutzpah?

 

https://www.armslist...rench-gun-repro


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