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Phila Ordnance and Richardson receivers side by side


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#41 Doug Richardson

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 02:22 PM

posted by mkw

The question has been raised as to the position I chose to locate the bolt handle on my Display receivers.  My decision was based on three considerations.  First, the gun was designed to fire from an open bolt.  It was intended that the gun be carried with the bolt open (cocked) so that it would be ready for instant use.  The designers did not consider carrying the gun with the bolt closed as evidenced by the fact that the safety will not work in the closed-bolt position (1921-1928). 
 
Second, the movie people use my Display guns in non-shooting scenes.  It would not look right to see soldiers in battle carrying their Thompsons with the bolt closed since that would delay getting the gun into action. 
 
Third, when I display complete guns, I load the magazines with dummy cartridges.  I think it looks really good to be able to look into the breach and see the cartridges at the top of the magazine, the feed ramp and the ejector.  Why would anyone want to cover up all that? 
 
To make my receivers look complete without further work, every one of my receivers is drilled and tapped to accept my Display Pilot Kit and Display Bolt Handle Kit.  They have also had the rear sight holes so that a rear sight could be easily installed.  From the get-go my receivers have been finished.  I don't understand all this talk about what shop work is required to assemble a display receiver.  There should not be any.

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#42 AlexanderA

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 03:58 PM

Having the actuator handle in the rear position would be reasonable, as long as the gaping void visible through the actuator slot was addressed in some way. On a real gun, if the actuator handle was in the rear position, you would see the top front portion of the bolt through the actuator slot. We can place a dummy bolt there, but it would take some extra work (fabricating a bracket?) to secure it in place.

 

It's far easier, in making up a display gun, to put the dummy bolt in the forward (closed) position, so that the bolt and extractor is visible through the ejection port. Then the dummy actuator handle would be clamped in place (using a spacer and washers) near the front end of the actuator slot.  The rest of the actuator slot would be filled with a thin material (I used thin plastic sheet, painted black), trimmed to a keyhole shape and press-fit and glued into place, simulating the top of the actuator. The goal is to make the display gun indistinguishable from a real gun, when viewed at a one-foot distance.


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#43 AlexanderA

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:11 AM

If the Philadelphia Ordnance dummy bolt head were to be used in the rear ("cocked") position in a Richardson Ultimax receiver, the easiest way to do it, it seems to me, would be to drill and tap a hole in the center of the rear face of the dummy bolt. Then, you would drill and tap a corresponding hole in the front of the solid portion ("denial island") of the receiver, and join the two with a threaded stud. (It would take a long drill bit to reach through the front of the receiver. Doug should consider this modification of his product. It could be called "provision for a dummy bolt.")

 

With the dummy bolt in the rear position, its front would be visible through the ejection port. The front of the Phil Ord dummy bolt is not machined. You'd have to do a bit of lathe work on this, to create a bolt face setback and a fake firing pin hole.

 

I've already commented elsewhere that if the dummy bolt is placed in the forward position, it needs to have a 1/4" clearance hole drilled for the ejector (unless you want to shorten and destroy your ejector).


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#44 anjong-ni

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:57 AM

   I agree that we are fortunate to have two quality receiver builders to choose from. I do have some questions for Bob:

-What police dept. is using Thompsons or buying/replacing worn out TSMG receivers? And wasn't the number of (non-military) mgs fixed in 1968, with no more "ever" being added? So more are made every day? Hollywood must already have plenty of full-auto blank guns, from past war/gangster movies. Do they still order them built?

-What is the function of the magwell bevels? Do 1921-28 and M1s both have them? It's certainly not to clear the magazine feed lips; they are longer than the bevels. My display P-O receivers don't have them...were they optional, or only available on 100% receivers? I thought I ordered "everything".

   Observation: As far as having to "re-blue" a D-R Ultimax after Dremeling it out into your own personal mg, unless you clamp it in a vice, nobody would probably look inside to notice. That bare section of bolt cavity would be the least of your worries....Phil


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#45 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 02:40 PM

1986


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#46 reconbob

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 05:57 PM

     We make and sell finished full-auto Thompsons for sale to Class 2 manufacturers and Class 3 dealers

that have a police letter - i.e. - a letter from a Police Department requesting that the the gun be demonstrated.

With this letter a Class 3 dealer can have the gun in inventory or for sale/transfer to a Police Department. By far

most of the buyers of finished guns are Class 2's who have rental ranges. Their customers can shoot a

Thompson and they do not have to worry about putting a lot of wear on an original/collectable gun. So, you

can make new guns but they can only be sold to the entities mentioned. I have not promoted the guns to

police, but the Thompson might do ok in sales to them.

   The mag well bevels - my opinion - they are there to eliminate a sharp corner. The magazine lips do not

extend up to the extent that they hit there. The first shooting M1928A1's I made did not have the bevels

and they shot just fine, but I added the bevels for authenticity. We only do the bevels on 100% receivers.

 

Bob


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#47 Paladin601

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 10:23 PM

Bob, why make your bolt handle an open bolt, instead of a closed bolt?


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#48 darrylta

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 10:41 AM

I can attest to Bob's authentic looking 80% deluxe receivers, I have a 1928 display receiver fitted out with WHurley cut

and epoxied parts. Last month I took all my Thompsons to a local gun show, I layed them all on a table and

did a last minute safety check by cycling the actuators forgetting that the display gun was on the table as well.

 

Well,,,,In short, I broke the epoxied actuator knob off of the display gun and had to scrabble to fix it before I went to the show :)

 

I got Bob's receiver, serial numbered to match the lower and a riveted on Lyman site.

Bob always gives the extra effort to satisfy his customers. If I ever buy another one, it will be a Philly Ord. for sure.

 

-Darryl


Edited by darrylta, 28 May 2013 - 05:08 AM.

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#49 reconbob

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 07:19 PM

    The bolt handle and bolt head are just parts. Its up to the customer to decide if they

want their model to have the bolt "open" or "closed". I have probably done over 100 M1928A1

and M1/M1A1 display guns over the years and out of that number I would say only 2 or 3

people wanted the bolt to be "open".

    What I offer now is a bolt head and a dummy/display actuator knob. The actuator knob

has a 5/16" shank and the dummy bolt head can be drilled with a 5/16" hole so the knob

can interlock with the bolt head. When it is all finished it looks like there is a bolt assembly

in the "gun" in the closed position.

    Now, if the customer also wants the H-lock and breech entry machined this opens up the

actuator slot as described in a previous post and you have the open slot that you would not

have if it was a real gun with the bolt closed.

   Here is a photo of a display/dummy "gun" with the fake bolt head and actuator knob. This

particular "gun" did not have the H-locks so the actuator slot is not open:

 

IMG_0148_zps56365925.jpg

 

Bob


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#50 Paladin601

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 09:16 PM

That looks really nice, Bob


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#51 james m

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 03:29 PM

Attached File  2013_0529thompsonsmgbl0002.JPG   117.12K   12 downloadsAttached File  2013_0529thompsonsmgbl0002.JPG   117.12K   12 downloads

With all the discussion about how these receivers are machine ; I decided to try something I hadn't attempted in the past.

 

This was to see it The Blish Lock slots machined into my 80% Philadelphia Ordnance receiver would accept the Blish lock.

 

As I think you all can see this isn't going to happen. Frankly it isn't even close to entering the slots. If any of you are wondering this is a military surplus Blish lock and it fits perfectly with a military surplus bolt and actuator .

I am having problems posting pictures here but I think you see my point.   I purposefully reversed the lock so you can see it won't fit either way. Here is an assembled bolt using that exact Blish lock.  Perhaps Bob can explain what the exact problem my be.

Jim

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Edited by james m, 28 May 2013 - 04:43 PM.

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#52 reconbob

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 05:46 PM

    The H-lock or Blish lock cuts are correctly machined in the receiver. The lock does not drop in

because the slots need to be filed/beveled, and because the bolt pocket is not finished machined,

but slightly undersized. The pocket is approx 0.01" undersize in width and approx 0.020" undersize

in depth. The idea here is that when the pocket is finished the finish cuts will machine away all surfaces

leaving smooth surfaces.

    There is a tiny bump at the front that would be machined away if the pocket was finished - the

tip of the scribe is pointing to it. This can be quickly dressed with a file if you want you lock to drop

in:

 

IMG_3428_zpsfd90a82d.jpg

 

    Also the edges of the slots need to be beveled as shown in this photo. This can also be done

with a file and if you break the edges as shown the lock will drop in:

 

IMG_3429_zpsb0fe90c5.jpg

 

    The machining of the H-lock cuts was never intended to provide a finished bolt pocket, but

to put the cuts in the right place so that if the receiver was finished later you would not have to

worry about the H-lock cuts. The difficulty in machining the H-lock cuts is that you can't measure

them until after they are machined so its easy to go wrong. We are able to constantly check the

position of the slots - this is an operation that is 100% inspected - and we also routinely finish 80%

receivers into 100% receivers which we test fire using the same tools and programs.

 

    So there is nothing "wrong" with your receiver.

 

Bob


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#53 james m

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 06:31 PM

Thanks for the additional information.  Since this is a display only gun I don't intend to make any further modifications to the receiver at this time.  Perhaps some day a degree of sensibility will return to this Country

and this receiver can be machined out the rest of the way to completion.

Jim


Edited by james m, 28 May 2013 - 06:39 PM.

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