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Looking for advice on this M1A1


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Excellent information guys. Btw my name is Vinny and I really dont like hiding behind an avatar name. I split my time between Phoenix and Colorado. I am in the petroleum business so I use pet 1 as my avatar. This forum has been the best group I could possibly find. I have another expensive hobby that deals with remote control jet ( small) aircraft powered with real jet engines so I divide my time between both hobbies and running a business lol. Im in Cali at the moment attending a big event in the jet hobby. Anyway dont be mad at me but I bought a brp thompson look a like some months ago and I want that gun to be my everyday shooter and would really like an original thompson as a part time shooter and collectible. My problem is one day I want a GI M1A1 and the next day its a 1928 WW2 gun. I did the same thing with my MP 40 i bought a Wilson tube gun and now looking for a good battlefield bring back without breaking the bank. Btw there are great guys on the MP40 forum here too. I hope Im not being too much of a pest and I wont be buying anything unless it gets posted on here for review. Ty all...Vinny
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i would target a 1928 police gun....advantages are typically better condition, original finish, matching numbers.....war guns tend to be the opposite of those advantages...but it depends on what history you like.

 

i can only remember seeing 1 nice Savage 1928a1 for sale since ive been into the hobby..it sold for $24k(ish) and had original finish, but was sold w/o knowing if it was matching # or not (it ended up being matching #)....ONE in 1.5-2 years now....

 

im sure other 1928a1s have been for sale i didnt notice, but im not sure any were original or matching #'s...

 

ive seen endless refinished M1's on Rubens website....they look nice...i believe they are recent refinishes for $27k....

 

not enough 1928's have come to market to even know where the price is......i looked at the M1 frank has for sale for $24k and i dont think it looks too bad....i think you should look further into that gun as its not selling yet and the price may go lower...

Edited by huggytree
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If I was in Pet 1 shoes, I'd look at a nice vintage WWII as a shooter, the ability to use drums is

a huge plus. We all can see that Buzz is very bias towards the M1A1, since he owns one.

 

As a owner of Colts, 1928s, M1s and M1a1s, I'm not bias towards a particular model.

 

I agree that the M1 family is built like tanks, the 28s are also very solidly made too. Pet1 should

know that the M1A1s were the final models made , cutting the out frills and costly details of the

original Savage 28s that made them on a par with the Colt guns in many respects. Each succeeding

model was increasingly cheapened to meet the demands of the escalating war effort and to save cost.

 

Pet1, you should give this thought before buying your shooter gun. Is it your intent to buy several

guns? If so, it really doesn't matter which one you buy first. Thompsons are like potato chips, it's

hard to satisfied with just one, I personally have 8.

 

Food for thought,

Darryl

 

 

Darryl,

 

I own two thompsons, a 17,XXX Savage Commercial that was shipped to a NY police department in 1940 and a RIA arsenal rebuild Savage M1A1.

 

Both guns I would call VG/EXC condition and both run 100%, I was very lucky to stumble over these guns locally.

 

Originally, I wanted to buy only the 1928, but the seller made such a good deal on the M1A1 that I literally could not refuse.

 

After owning the M1A1 for a few months, it really began to grow on me, it's an underrated firearm.

 

The M1A1 is a superb weapon and it has a lot of personality. It's also very natural to shoot from the shoulder accurately.

 

 

The word "cheap" does not apply to any Thompson model, there is no cheapo part on any Thompson. The least expensive Thompson model is incredibly heavy-duty, it weighs the same as a Garand.

 

The construction and build quality of the M1 models is excellent, about on par with a WWII Garand.

 

 

There are only two flavors of thompson, more fancy and less fancy. "More fancy" appeals to gun collectors. "Less fancy" appeals to engineers.

 

As a war weapon, the M1 and M1A1 are a bona-fide product improvement over the 1928 model.

 

The 1928 thompson is festooned with extremely expensive and needlessly fancy features. A prime example is the ladder sight on the 28. It's a superb quality sight but in use it's inferior to the sheet metal peep sight on the M1A1. When I shoot my 28, I ignore the microscopic notch in the Lyman sight and use the cocking knob.

 

When I shoot my M1A1, my eyeball lines up with the excellent peep sight and I can point it and shoot it very naturally and efficiently. To do the same on the 28 I have to lift the ladder and use the sliding peep.

 

Another example of overkill is the cantilever foregrip mount on the 28. A piece of spring steel presses upward exactly in the center of a barrel fin. That is a mount suited for a bench rest rifle, not a submachine gun with a 10 inch barrel. The original Thompson was overdesigned and over-engineered. Which needlessly pumped the price so high that it sold poorly.

 

Another example is the complicated retarded blowback system on the 28. It's brilliant but it's gross overkill on the 45acp cartridge. It simply adds cost and complexity to the gun to no benefit. The M1 and M1A1 bolt is an actual improvement over the blish system for several reasons, the least of which is the lower cost.

 

The 28 model was needlessly expensive and overdesigned and Savage did an excellent job of simplifying and improving it.

 

 

The 21 and 28 models are like a hot rod engine with 6 stromberg carberators. It's very appealing to car collectors but at the end of the day you'd get better performance and service life by replacing them with a single 4 barrel.

 

If an ordnance bureau was offered the 28 model and M1A1 model at equal price, I'll bet dollars to donuts that they would pick the M1A1 every time.

Edited by buzz
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Buzz,

 

I'm also an engineer and can see the differing aspects of both, the 28 and M1 families. When I referred to cheapened, there is no denying the fact that the Government paid a lower price for the M1 family of Thompsons since it cost less manufacturing.

 

Myself, I'm much more the collector than a shooter. So it's great that we both can own the different models and can appreciate both of them. When I go to the range, I normally bring a 21 / 28 and a M1. The 21 / 28 runs like a sewing machine, the M1 runs very rough in comparison, I can really feel the choppy blow back system in the M1.

 

Everyone has opinions, comparing the two is like comparing apples & oranges. This comparison will be ongoing long after we are passed. There is no better than the other, there not built the same.

 

The thing you can't experience with a M1 is the L & C drums. Of course you can jerry rig a drum to work on a M1, I personally do not want the drum hanging from just the mag catch. Does your M1A1 have an "improved / cheapened" mag catch without the drum boss, or a 1928 mag catch?

 

Darryl

Edited by darrylta
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Darryl,

 

"Cheap" is not the same word as "inexpensive". Cheap is a colored word that is often taken to mean low class or low quality.

 

I don't think that's an accurate description of the M1 type Thompsons, which were a superb weapon and which lacked for nothing.

 

The M1 types are old fashioned billet-steel and walnut, it's similar to a Garand in construction. It's a super-heavy-duty weapon.

 

 

It would be difficult to point to something on the 28 model that should have been carried over to the M1 or M1A1.

 

What do the barrel fins on a Thompson actually do in real life? Pretty much nothing that you'd ever notice in service.

 

By removing them, do you "cheapen" the gun? Or is it an improvement to the gun, by accelerating the production rate and putting more guns in the field?

 

 

Was the M1A1 the bottom rung of the Thompson line or was it the best of the Thompson line?

 

If you're standing on the beach in Normandy or Iwo Jima, it was the best.

 

 

On a side note, reconbob examined my m1A1 and he declared that it has "an extremely slick action".

 

Apparently, they vary in terms of "slickness" from gun to gun.

 

Mine runs like greased whale snot.

 

maybe yours needs a little more running in or some judicious lapping?

 

reconbob might be able to expand on this topic a little, my experience with the gun is a single data point.

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Buzz,

Just to clarify, my M1 and my M1a1 both spent time at PK's spa, thank you.

Darryl

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I noticed something weird that happened about 3 years ago.

 

USGI 1928A1s were selling for about $23k and M1/M1A1s were sitting unsold at $17 to $18k.

 

Then they both suddenly jumped to around $25k.

 

I think that M1s and M1A1s might be less common in the NFA registry.

 

So as hardcore collectors take over the NFA market, I think the M1/M1A1 types are being suctioned off into collections.

 

Hardcore gun collectors hoard stuff like it's their children, sometimes until they die.

 

If M1s and M1A1s are more scarce, they will dry up and disappear first.

 

 

I did a casual check on M1 and M1A1 availability and I noticed that months went by sometimes with NO decent M1s or M1A1s on the market.

 

Sometimes there are more Colts for sale than M1/M1A1s.

 

 

Wouldn't it to be fascinating to know how many guns are in the registry?

 

You could probably watch the gun sales and make up a statistical analysis on that basis, but the guns sell at different rates.

 

Shooters will sell a shooter gun like a SWD MAC10 at the drop of a hat, but a collector with a rare piece will watch his children starve before he sells it.

Edited by buzz
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By the way, guys, everything I write on this website is just casual opinions and observations.

 

just shooting the breeze with the Thompson brotherhood

 

I don't regard myself as an expert in any way, shape or form.

 

I enjoy reading other people's opinions.

 

If you point out an error on my part, i regard that as you doing me a favor. So please don't hesitate to disagree with me.

 

It's all good stuff

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buy that one from Spiwak and prepare for a possible repair bill on top of that rock bottom price..ha :happy:

 

as far as pricing----a 1928 really hasnt come up in a long time....so while people are asking $25-27 for M1's we dont know if they are actually selling....Franks isnt selling for $24k very quickly......maybe 1928's are now $28-29k? we dont know....has it been 6 months since one came up for sale? and even so, how can you compare prices based upon 1 gun.....these guns come up too rarely to get a handle on pricing......Ruben has M1's....i dont know if any are selling...his Thompsons seem to sit a while typically...

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Hello Gents,

I'll add my 2 cents; I have purchased from David Spiwak and didn't have any issues as others have experienced. Ask for detailed close up pictures of the Thompson I'm sure David would be willing to send you additional pictures and answer any questions you have. I think the gun will sell fairly quick at the current price but I could be wrong, with that said I wouldn't rush into this purchase or any other purchase until you know what your looking for in a Thompson such as a collector, shooter, or what model.

 

I live 2 hours from David and will offer to have a look at the Thompson if you see some additional pictures and think its the right gun your looking for, that's with David's permission of course.

 

Best of luck on your search,

Andy

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buy that one from Spiwak and prepare for a possible repair bill on top of that rock bottom price..ha :happy:

 

as far as pricing----a 1928 really hasnt come up in a long time....so while people are asking $25-27 for M1's we dont know if they are actually selling....Franks isnt selling for $24k very quickly......maybe 1928's are now $28-29k? we dont know....has it been 6 months since one came up for sale? and even so, how can you compare prices based upon 1 gun.....these guns come up too rarely to get a handle on pricing......Ruben has M1's....i dont know if any are selling...his Thompsons seem to sit a while typically...

 

The last 1928 Commercial I saw for sale went for around $35k at Julias.

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buy that one from Spiwak and prepare for a possible repair bill on top of that rock bottom price..ha :happy:

 

as far as pricing----a 1928 really hasnt come up in a long time....so while people are asking $25-27 for M1's we dont know if they are actually selling....Franks isnt selling for $24k very quickly......maybe 1928's are now $28-29k? we dont know....has it been 6 months since one came up for sale? and even so, how can you compare prices based upon 1 gun.....these guns come up too rarely to get a handle on pricing......Ruben has M1's....i dont know if any are selling...his Thompsons seem to sit a while typically...

 

The last 1928 Commercial I saw for sale went for around $35k at Julias.

Julias is a special situation..its not the normal price...WH's sell for $30 there.......and that was a S1928, not a 1928a1.......when has the last 1928a1 shown up? i cant remember one in a long time....ive seen more Colts than 1928a1's

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That $19k gun Spiwak has for sale is another "shooter" with a weird pedigree.

 

Why buy a gun like that when another few thousand will buy you a bonafide WWII M1 or M1A1?

this one screams ''problem''....when you can spot it and the price is $4-5k under market its a warning to stay away....future resale? expect to sit on it for a long time to resell.....better to spend $4-5k more and get something correct

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I bought a 1928A1 from another board member about this time last year.. I've had an M1 for 8 or 9 years. Both are nice guns. Different strokes..... Both guns are original WWII guns - not "remanufactured, "rewatted", welded, etc. I enjoy the history, so I prefer this when buying. No problem if I have to wait for something to become available. I also have a very early Haenel MP-40 ( 3 digit serial number, no suffix.) I would like an MP-38 too. I haven't seen one for sale in awhile, but, who knows? One could pop up tomorrow. The looking is half the fun. Again, to each his own.

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I have no intention of buying Spiwak's M1 Thompson but do have an question for an industry person. It has an IRS number stamped on the top which would have been assigned if registered during or prior to the '68 amnesty period if the original serial number was ground off or illegible.

 

What reason would there be for the name T.S. Solomon would be stamped into the receiver in addition to the IRS number?

 

Last question, any idea on how high the IRS numbers go? I read in the past that IRS office were issued blocks of numbers. Colt Chopper's "Nelson Thompson's" IRS number is in the 6,000 range. Are there 6,000 registered NFA items out there that had their original serial number scrubbed off at one point or are there large gaps in the IRS numbers?

Edited by Bridgeport28A1
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I attempted to negotiate with Ruben on a colt Thompson that he had for 6 months and he would not drop his price $1k

 

Others may have a different experience. I have nothing against him as his service is great. To some that service is worth his premium. Once in a while I think he has a gun priced normal.

 

I did see a Mac listed as excellent with rust on it.

Edited by huggytree
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ColtChopper's Nelson Thompson gun is in the 6000 serial number range. While I have never liked Spiwak's advertisement pictures, even the ones he sends when requesting additional pictures, there are no worries about being defrauded. He is an honest dealer that will ship you a gun upon payment and ATF approval. I always recommend a potential buyer go see his guns to be certain of what you are purchasing. Always good advice!

 

Case in point: I would assume most potential buyers would like a picture of the IRS serial number and the name that is stamped on this M1 Thompson. I know I would like to see that, if nothing else for historical reasons should this name appear on another machine gun and to see the IRS number - a subject where little is known. If someone obtains those pictures, please post for all to see.

 

There is little doubt this is most likely a fine shooter grade Thompson, probably much better than a West Hurley M1. However, it is one of those guns whose high price is only dictated because the Registry is frozen for machine guns available to civilian owners. Without that freeze, it and many others like it would be very cheap.

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Just for grins I downloaded the very dark pictures of this M1 Thompson and brightened them up a bit to reveal the name. More questions. What does the number "204" represent?

 

Note how the receiver and frame mate up on the right and left sides. Something bad is going on here. Could this be a welded receiver? I do not know but look forward to responses of others on the board with some expertise in this area.

 

​In addition, note how the AOC name and address on the right side of the receiver are not straight. And how all the nomenclature normally found under the rear sight on the left side of the receiver appears to be missing. What is going on??? I would want to see the current and past owners ATF Form.

 

SAM_2518 with light arrow.jpg SAM_2519 light arrow.jpg

 

 

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buy that one from Spiwak and prepare for a possible repair bill on top of that rock bottom price..ha :happy:

 

as far as pricing----a 1928 really hasnt come up in a long time....so while people are asking $25-27 for M1's we dont know if they are actually selling....Franks isnt selling for $24k very quickly......maybe 1928's are now $28-29k? we dont know....has it been 6 months since one came up for sale? and even so, how can you compare prices based upon 1 gun.....these guns come up too rarely to get a handle on pricing......Ruben has M1's....i dont know if any are selling...his Thompsons seem to sit a while typically...

 

The last 1928 Commercial I saw for sale went for around $35k at Julias.

Julias is a special situation..its not the normal price...WH's sell for $30 there.......and that was a S1928, not a 1928a1.......when has the last 1928a1 shown up? i cant remember one in a long time....ive seen more Colts than 1928a1's

 

 

I've seen high prices on every auction website.

 

I've seen common, used guns sell on gunbroker for more than you buy a brand new one for.

 

Crazy bidding is part of the psychology of auctions.

 

 

Gunbroker is not a good place to sell guns that are worth more than about $25k.

 

The real high rollers that get on their own jet plane to go to an auction generally do not mess with gunbroker.

 

I have seen guns sell for $20,000 on gunbroker and then 6 months later sell for $40,000 at julias.

 

So which one of those numbers is the "real" price?

 

 

As far as 1928A1s go, they are generally considered to be less valuable than 28s and I have observed them sell for around the same price as M1s and M1A1s, in the 23 to 27k price range.

 

 

The supply of WWII Thompsons is always thin. It almost seems like there are more colts around than WWII guns.

 

That doesn't imply that WWII guns are more valuable than colts, it just means that finding a good one is getting harder and harder.

 

I keep an eye on the auction websites, and sometimes there are long stretches where there isn't a single M1A1 for sale in the entire USA.

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. A few things -

 

Buzz, do not under estimate the grip mount. Yes, it is a finely machined spring that

presses tightly against the barrel, but this provides a solid base for the forend. The

first guns had vertical foregrips and when you handle the gun you are defacto trying

to pull or pry the grip mount away from the barrel. Then when they switch to the M1928's

now you have slings and swivels which transfer the weight of the gun to the forend and

again tries to pry the grip mount away from the barrel.

When they simplified the grip mount it was not as strong and actually pulled aay from the

barrel. It was so bad they made a special band to hold the forend tightly to the barrel.

 

I have handled many Thompsons and built over 200 by now. Plus guns come thru for

repair or refinishing, etc. Most guns feel and handle the same. But once in a great while

you encounter a gun that is smooth and slick like oiled glass. I would say maybe one

gun in 75 is like this. When you handle so many guns when a good one comes along

its very obvious as soon as you cock it. I am refering to the M1928/A1's and M1/M1A1's

as all Colts are slick. Many wartime guns are not perfectly machined so its normal for

them to be a little rough - but they all work. We all know that Buzz is the president of

The M1 fan club but his gun is one of the slickest I have ever handled.

 

TD - I at first thought that the trigger frame in the photos was simply not pushed

all the way forward. In the left hand side pucture you can see that the trigger frame is

so far back that if you inserted a magazine it would hit the bottom of the receiver and

not slide up all the way. But the right side view does not look like the frame is slightly

to the rear and yet there is not a clean joint between the frame and receiver. I agrre

that evil forces may be ar work and anyone interested in this gun should have it

checked.

 

Bob

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Reconbob,

 

There are two separate ideas here:

 

1. Is all the fancy stuff on the original Thompson design really needed?

 

2. Is the M1A1 a "cheapo" gun?

 

 

1. The original Thompson design has every possible super deluxe refinement and was fabricated like a fine fowling piece.

 

The entire gun is brilliantly engineered and it works extremely well. It's like if Rolls Royce made a jeep, complete with 10 coats of hand rubbed paint and corinthian leather seats.

 

It's old school craftsmanship and metalworking, almost a piece of industrial art.

 

From a gun collecting standpoint, you can't do any better than that. It's a iconic design with lots of extra cost features and a super build quality.

 

But on the other hand, most of the fancy features don't do much of anything.

 

For example, what do the barrel fins actually do on a gun that shoots 45 acp? Probably nothing that you would ever notice in actual use.

 

2. Saying that the M1 type Thompson is a cheap gun is nonsense. It's built like a garand, from solid steel.

 

What useful thing does it lack? In what way isn't it a deluxe and super heavy duty gun?

 

The only iffy thing about it is the crappy riveted mount and that weak point is 100% corrected by the barrel band. Once the band is on the gun, that grip will never break off.

 

If you compare the M1/M1A1 to other SMGs from WWII, it's easily the best made.

 

How is it that the M1A1 is called a "cheapo" when it's made from 11 lbs of solid billet steel, but MP40 is made from sheet metal and it's adored by gun collectors like it's some sort of masterpiece of gun artistry?

 

Something doesn't compute there.

 

 

There are just three flavors or Thompson: incredo-deluxe, ultra-deluxe and super-deluxe.

 

There is no cheapo Thompson.

Edited by buzz
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