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Winchester Model 1907 In .351 - Law Enforcement & Outlaw Firepower


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Jim C 351 asked me to post this video link of him shooting his Model 1907 Winchester in .351 Winchester caliber at the Tusco range in Ohio.

 

In Jim's words...

 

"I made this video to show the firepower available to the law and the lawless in

1907. The Winchester M1907 combines close range accuracy and plenty of firepower to

take out the Dillinger gang in one fell swoop.

With the WRA "07", the riot shotgun and tommy, would not be needed. (In my opinion).

I can't figure why they were not more universally issued."

 

http://youtu.be/Y6iT8t5Pl0w

 

Your comments are welcomed. I wish someone still made ammo for these...

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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IMG_1663_1.JPG

Something extra to go with video.

I believe it was Col Walsh who discovered that the 351 would only penetrate the front part of a bullet proof vest, only to come to rest in the rear panel. However, that did the job.

Jim C

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Nice shooten Jim, thanks for sharing, damn good looking gun.

 

Pick up your BRASS !!!!!!!!

 

Imagine one going full auto as the JD gang had- I've never heard of them using one in work, just captured in Tucson.

 

OCM

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Nice shooten Jim, thanks for sharing, damn good looking gun.

 

Pick up your BRASS !!!!!!!!

 

Imagine one going full auto as the JD gang had- I've never heard of them using one in work, just captured in Tucson.

 

OCM

 

OCM,

I don't know about a full auto 07, but in semi auto, yes. Homer van Meter used a 07 to kill a policeman during one or his last robberies and Baby Face Nelson may have used one to kill 2 federal agents the same day Nelson died.

Source,---"THE LIFE AND DEATH OF AMERICA'S FIRST CELEBRITY CRIMINAL ,JOHN DILLINGER. By Dary Matera.

While full auto shooting is quite fastenating, semi is generally the best way to produce casualties without wasting ammo and hitting inocent bystanders.

Thanks for the compliments.

Jim C

PS, I had several guys chasing brass.

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Jim C-

Don't really know if JD ever used the full auto conversion from HS Lebman, I think it was picked up by one of his gang members in San Antonio. My guess it was just in the arsenal with them, when arrested.

Most the 30s criminals used full auto stuff, unfortunately the bystander was not an issue to them. As we've discussed a perfect police gun for the time.

There is just such a snap to them. You have to fire one to understand.

Lester Gillis ( Baby Face Nelson ) used a Thompson at the Barrington battle where he was killed, he died that night, they rolled his nude body up in a blanket and left it beside the road. The guy with him was using a Colt Monitor. His wife was along for the ride too.

HS Lebman had made him a Colt mini submachine gun from a 38Super. They were close friends, spent Thanksgiving together in 33.

Great friend, huh, Baby Face Nelson.

I suspect he had a few 07s from time to time from Lebman. Yes, Van Meter the same, had a Lebman Colt mini too.

 

Anyway, nice video, I've watched it a couple times, interesting seeing the spent shells fly by, oh hell yes I knew you;'d be grabbing them.

 

OCM

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OCM,

As far as Nelson is concerned, how do you know which firearm he used in his last shootout . One author says one thing another author says another thing. I believe I have read accounts he used a TSMG, a BAR, and a 351.

I think the only way to know for sure is to read the coroners report on the slugs recovered from the agents.

Do you have a copy of same??

Jim C

Edited by jim c 351
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Jim C-

You are absolutly correct, I'm going by what I remember from all this, I don't have autopsy reports, coroners stuff sitting here and I don't believe I've ever seen the reports on the Agent's autopsy, good question tho. I don't have it in front of me, but as I remember the Thompson used in the Barrington shoot-out was recovered and used as evidence in the trail against John Paul Chase and maybe Hellen Gillis, Lester's wife. The Monitor came out of New York from a bootlegger and is gone. So, whatever was fired through the front window from inside the car has vanished. At least got a photo of that showing a pretty tight pattern.

I should clarify my statements as coming from memory, I don't have the resources anymore to look up everything I say, so I guess this is my version .

TSMG, BAR, 351, sure, why not. Sounds good to me.

I might have the deposition on the Chase trial & the Thompson , or it's where a bouts- let me check.

 

sorry about my misleading statements....

 

OCM

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OCM,

I realize this means absolutely nothing , but here is Wikipedia's take on Nelsons last stand.

 

 

Nelson's wife, fleeing into an open field under instructions from Nelson, turned briefly in time to see Nelson hit with the shot that would prove fatal. He grasped his side and sat down on the running board as Chase continued to fire from behind the bandits' car. Nelson fired at the agents with a .351 rifle so rapidly that bystanders mistook it for a machine gun. Six bullets from Cowley's submachine gun eventually struck Nelson in the chest and stomach before Nelson mortally wounded Cowley with bullets in the chest and stomach, while pellets from Hollis's shotgun struck Nelson in the legs and momentarily downed him. As Nelson regained his feet, Hollis, possibly already wounded, moved to better cover behind a utility pole while drawing his pistol, but was killed by a bullet to the head before he could return fire. Nelson stood over Hollis's body for a moment, then limped toward the agents' bullet-riddled car. Nelson was too badly wounded to drive, so Chase got behind the wheel, and the two men and Nelson's wife fled the scene. Nelson had been shot a total of seventeen times; seven of Cowley's submachine gun slugs had struck his torso and ten of Hollis's shotgun pellets had torn into his legs.[44] After telling his wife "I'm done for", Nelson gave directions as Chase drove them to a safe house on Walnut Street in Wilmette. Nelson died in bed here, with his wife at his side, at 7:35 that evening.[45] His stripped body was found the next morning in a ditch in Skokie, Illinois

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You bettcha. It's great when anybody has any interest in this subject anymore.

 

OCM

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Jim C-

 

I may have some evidence that a Thompson and a Winchester 351 were used at the Barrington battle. Would probably mean Nelson had gotton one from his buddy, HS Lebman at some point or possibly a standard version out of New York.

At this point, my take is John Paul Chase fired a Colt Monitor from the rear seat, got out one side with a Winchester 07, Nelson the other side with a Thompson and Nelson in typical Baby Face Nelso style walked down the road firing at the officers, Chase from the car.

I have copy of a tape that was made just after the battle, with a reenactment and interviews of two people that saw the whole affair. I'll check that out, been a long time since I've viewed it-

 

Cool, love getting back into this. Also more interesting is where is the Winchester & Thompson these days. As far as I've heard, the Colt dissappeared.

Larry Wack is digging some stuff up from the FBI.

 

to be continued-

 

OCM

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OCM,

I don't know much of anything about John Paul Chase. Nelson was the big time public enemy and obviously the Bureau wanted to get him for killing the agent at LB.

But I do have a healthy respect for the 30-06, and even more for the BAR. If someone told me that Hollis and Cowley died from an overdose of 30-06 ammo, I would have no problem believing them. If Chase was a competent gunner and used a gun that would shoot through both sides of a car, then Chase might be responsible for both agents death.

Of course this brings us back to the autopsy report.

What ever else they were , they weren't cowards and neither were the agents. I wonder if the outcome would have been different if the FBIs "Military Shooters" were present. That is if the outcome would have been better for the FBI.

Jim C

PS If a BAR and a M1907 were available, they might have been a better choice over the Tommy for shooting through a car.

Edited by jim c 351
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Your comments are welcomed. I wish someone still made ammo for these...

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

 

Too bad these guys don't exist .

http://www.buffaloar...5.aspx?CAT=4445

 

Oh , wait , they do.

Chris

 

Chris,

 

Very good news. I thought no one was making .351 ammo, so thanks for the tip. Not too bad of a price, but they are back ordered currently.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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Your comments are welcomed. I wish someone still made ammo for these...

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

 

Too bad these guys don't exist .

http://www.buffaloar...5.aspx?CAT=4445

 

Oh , wait , they do.

Chris

 

Chris,

 

Very good news. I thought no one was making .351 ammo, so thanks for the tip. Not too bad of a price, but they are back ordered currently.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

David,

If you are thinking of buying one of Mike Hensleys Win 07s, I recommend not buying the ammo. Buy the brass and loading dies. The brass when it becomes available (probably when they get enough back orders) is $.81 each. The dies are $80.00.

Reason: sooner or later you will have to reload. If thier ammo is loaded to WRA specs, then its to hot for best accuracy. With factory ammo I have completely missed a 8X12 target at 100 yds. With a moderate reload I can make 4 inch groups at 100 yds.

Buy a box of 250 Berry plated 158 gr RN and have them shipped to me. I'll size them to .351 and send them back to you.

Use a CCI small rifle primer and 15 gr of 2400 for a velocity of 1550 fps.

Tell Mike that you are only interested in a 07 at least as good or better than my 07. No rusted, cracked stocks ,or other defects. Insist on a 10 shot mag also.

Good luck.

Jim C

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=289425710

Edited by jim c 351
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So far, FBI reports has John Paul Chase firing a Colt Monitor from the rear seat of the car, into the front window, where Hellen Gillis was ducking down.

We have that in a photo.

Also one agent was killed by 45s to the stomach, other by a 351 to the back of the head. Chase was using a rifle sitting on the hood of a car, Nelson was using a machine gun.

Tons of different versions, but these are what the FBI reported in thier reports-

One version, " I've heard " is the Thompson jammed and Nelson went back and got a 351, after killing the one guy on his side of the road with the Thompson.

Interesting character, Nelson. Quite the family man in his other side. Your basic outlaw freak.

 

OCM

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OCM,

Well I guess that settles it unless other info surfaces. Its amazing that the BAR was so ineffective. Wonder if the bullets deflected off of the window. As far as the Colt 21 jamming , well lets just hope that A.F. doesn't read that.

At first glance it would appear the FBI didn't think that Chase was behind the 351 or else they would have tried for the death penalty.

 

One thing that got my attention was the lack of stopping power that resulted from 7 rds of 45 ACP in the torso and 10 pellets of OO buck in the legs of Nelson. As a reader of Elmer Keith and Jeff Cooper for the last 50 years, I was brainwashed into believing that 1 or 2 shots from a 45 would end the fight. One writer in Tracie Hills book , The American Legend, made the ridiculous statement that 3 rds from a Tommy would lift the recipient off his feet and throw him to the ground. ( a physical impossibility) Obviously a heavier caliber should have been brought to this fight by the Bureau.

Thanks for all the info.

Jim C

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You bet-

Nelson was one of the worst. His idea of robbing a bank was go in shoot everything then leave, he was not liked by Dillinger but a needed asset in the business. Emil Wanetka, of the Little Bohemia Lodge, remembered playing catch with him when the gang was up there on vacation, he was 9 years old I think. Nelson started throwing the baseball at him so hard it hurt and he stopped.

 

Here is a shot of the front windshield , where John Paul Chase fired the Colt monitor machine rifle from the rear seat- very intelligent thing to do !

 

Somewhere in my files I have a photo of Nelson, fairly common one tho, of him laying on the slab with a huge hole in his side and a rag wrapped around it that Helen tried using to stop the bleeding. It's believed they left him laying beside the road nude ( underwear ) because his clothes were such a mess to redress him. The cops ened up burning his cloths and the blanket he was in, didn't want anything to do with this little mess that killed many of thier own.

 

Chase ended up in Alcatraz as # 238 I think he ened up writing a book just after being released from pirison with the help of the Alcatraz priest. There is a fellow in our outlaw historian group that's a distant relative and done a bit of research on him.

 

Fun digging this old stuff up again.

 

Not to forget the two brave officers that lost thier lives in this.

 

OCM

Edited by OCM
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I can only imagine the hearing damage and shear sensory shock of let'n go with a BAR inside the car.

I'd be pissed if I was in the front seat.

-Darryl

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Jim C , you have to hit to be effective . There is a nice 5 shot group in that window , but it prob'ly passed high and to the right if he was ducking down , but you can see that they pentrated easily with nice round holes. If they were GI 1906 ball , they were prob'ly tumbling going out the back of the car , if AP they prob'ly shed thier jackets but thier centers would still be flying true and you'd have round holes out the back. Was there any reports on the number of '06 fired ? Just 5 or did he miss with 15 or more ? Did he fire out of the back while moving or after stopped ? If while being chased , I would have gone for the motor / radiator to end the pursuit .

You just never know what will be effective at any given time. Shot placement and sheer grit can really cause wierd endings. From the criminal that took a full load of OO to the center of the chest , spinning him around and knocking him into the kitchen , and a second load which sent him crashing through the rear door onto the back porch , where another cop fired 6 .38s up at him from the bottom of the steps , 4 hitting and smashing his pelvis and causing him to fall off the porch unto the ground where he regained his feet and pointed his gun at the officer with the empty revolver , only to recieve a slug in the chest from the first cop , spinning him around into the rear fence , where he pointed the gun at the first cop , who put another OO load into his chest , spining him 360 degrees and down the fence , where he looked at the cops , dropped his gun , and clearly said , " I'm done . Don't shoot me no more ." . He died a short time later ..,, but man .

Then there was the clown ( pun intended ) who put a .22 short into a blank-firing pistol to see if it woud fire. It did . The bullet went through the side of the tent and killed the circus elephant on the other side . As the multi-ton behemoth hit the ground , this clown turned to the wittnesses and asked , " What was that ?" .

Chris

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I can only imagine the hearing damage and shear sensory shock of let'n go with a BAR inside the car.

I'd be pissed if I was in the front seat.

-Darryl

 

Yep, Chase fired a Colt Monitor from the rear seat, over the passenger side, right into the front windshield. Apparently Helen Gillis was dropped down in the seat, Mr. Gillis driving.

I've owned these cars, it's damn near impossible to maneuver a long arm inside these cars. Thompsons aren't an issue. ( much)

So he musta set it up on the back of the passenger side of the front seat, and let go a burst. Don't think he was a Rhodes Scholar.

Imagine what Nelson heard, about 18 inches away from the barrel.

Crazy times

 

OCM

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  • 1 year later...

"The Model 07 Police Rifle."

 

I ran across this section in a 1938 Winchester Sales Manual that I have in my collection, and thought it would be of interest to those who participated in this thread last year.

 

Any thoughts? I was wondering about the clip and magazine references. Does an 07 magazine have to be loaded by clip, or can it be recharged by clip with the magazine in place?

 

Model_07_Police_Rifle_1938.JPG

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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"The Model 07 Police Rifle."

 

I ran across this section in a 1938 Winchester Sales Manual that I have in my collection, and thought it would be of interest to those who participated in this thread last year.

 

Any thoughts? I was wondering about the clip and magazine references. Does an 07 magazine have to be loaded by clip, or can it be recharged by clip with the magazine in place?

 

attachicon.gifModel_07_Police_Rifle_1938.JPG

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

David,

Its a case of confusing the term clip and magazine.

The 351 mag loads like a 1911 pistol mag, not an M1 carbine mag.

So,-- a stripper clip, as used with the M1903, would not work in the 351 mag any more than it would work with the M1911 mag.

Jim C

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Jim,

 

Interesting...At first, I thought it was a confusion of clip vs. magazine in the Winchester reference, but when I saw that both terms were used, it made me think that perhaps there was something to it. This confusion certainly carries through to today in the firearm lexicon of many...I was explaining the difference to someone just last week. This may be the earliest (1938) confusion noted to date on the subject...

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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Jim-

Since you know my thumb issues, it's a bitch to lock my 351 open with the operating sleeve- This one has been restored, my last one was old, original. Maybe it's age now, but, any tricks, like the spring in the 28N ?

I was making my young nephew put flies on my fly rod while we were fishing ( old eyes), he's getting tired of taking care of the Uncle, now this .Haaaa.

 

Sandy

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