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Current Value - Beretta 38/42

Beretta 38/42

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#21 Petroleum 1

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 08:07 AM

I wish there was a way to track production serial numbers by years. Some are loaded with markings and serial numbers others like mine with just one serial number and no roll markings. I assume as the war went on and the Italians simplified the process to speed up production.
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#22 kanister

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 01:19 AM

The second mark on my gun is also curious (attached). I have seen the 4UT44 a few times, but not the second. Looked at proof marks and other German mark lists to see if anything looks similar and haven't found anything. 

 Have you tried Italian marks? If this gun was produced on 1942 perhaps it's not German.


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#23 GWick123

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 08:43 AM

Kanister, Certainly a possibility and I have not looked through those markings so far. Most of what I have found has been acceptance stamps of the German army. From the regions where I believe the gun was acquired, German acceptance stamps make the most sense. That said, it could have been traded or brought back by a brother. Carry back was from my dad - he was in France, Germany and Czechoslovakia. His brother was in Italy, however, don't believe he gave it to him and would likely be in conflict with the 4UT44 if it were from the Italian forces. Could be some sort proof mark from the factory for sure, but have not seen it on any other guns posted thus far. For shits and grins, I reached out to Baretta service to see if they have any historical records.


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#24 kanister

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 03:27 PM

I have found a similar mark on an Italian M1891 stock: it has only little differences.

Another similar mark was applied by inspectors of the Royal Navy.

 

Remember that after September '43 Germans seized every gun they can and many went to Normandy and other war theaters.

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Edited by kanister, 19 September 2019 - 03:29 PM.

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#25 GWick123

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 04:22 PM

I searched a bit after your initial comment, and couldn't find anything exact, although, there was a French mark that seemed to be close as well (squint and have wear over the years). The French mark was a lot earlier though. Saw a few remotely similar from Italy, but not close enough. I couldn't see the attachment for some reason. I would be curious, however, that when they started seizing weapons, did they go through the inspection and acceptance process to get the 4UT44 stamps as well - which I believe is pretty well accepted as a German acceptance stamp (although I haven't seen anything definitive on that either)? It's definitely interesting to try to figure out where it came from and what happened. Unfortunate that there's not a ton of information out there.  


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#26 kanister

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 01:45 AM

... the 4UT44 stamps as well - which I believe is pretty well accepted as a German acceptance stamp (although I haven't seen anything definitive on that either)?

Mistake is here: 4UT was not a German stamp but an Italian one.

The 4 Ufficio Tecnico (or 4th Tecnical Office) was an Italian office established before the September '43 surrender and was the heir of the old IVU.

After Germans seized every Italian facility the 4UT office inspected the guns addressed both to Germans and Italians.


Edited by kanister, 20 September 2019 - 06:08 AM.

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#27 Petroleum 1

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 06:49 AM

The 4UT stamping is definitely Italian its also on some handguns if the era. In the collectors world they bring more money but i dont know for sure why. When the Italians flipped sides in 43 the Germans in Italy disarmed the Italian forces and collected their weapons. The M1891s were ditched but the beretta smg were dispersed among the German forces. My gun was for sure picked up in France by an American paratrooper so these guns went everywhere. I have read where the beretta factory in northern Italy remained in axis control and continued to mfg guns until the end of the war for the German forces. Gwick i hope you can dig up some info from beretta it would be nice to know what the history is behind these markings and different mfg dates. The Germans really coveted these smgs even over their own equipment there must be some info out there.

Edited by Petroleum 1, 20 September 2019 - 06:51 AM.

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#28 huggytree

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 07:26 AM

They bring more money because they are german ww2 issued guns. a 4ut handgun will bring double/triple

 

without it they are just a commercial sale gun with no war time history


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#29 kanister

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 07:58 AM

They bring more money because they are german ww2 issued guns. a 4ut handgun will bring double/triple

 

without it they are just a commercial sale gun with no war time history

 

The only reason they bring more money is only the ignorance of the collectors that think that the 4UT is a German mark.

If you look at the Beretta Mod. 1934 pistols also the commercial Geco bring more money, but they are common commercial guns. 


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#30 GWick123

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 09:37 AM

Thanks for the info! There is certainly a dearth of information regarding German/Italian WWII weapons - mostly tribal knowledge in forums (hence the reason I started posting :) ). I had a similar situation with a Luger that was brought back at the same time. Fortunately, a Luger expert lived near me at the time that I met through a forum and gave me some great info. With regard to the 4UT44, there is little information and what is available makes vague reference to German proof marks upon import/acceptance. The great info you gave me sends me down a different path. Hopefully Beretta will help, although I am hopeful, am not confident. I'll do some additional searches for Italian marks and see what I can dig up. WaA numbers have also been mentioned in a number of places, however, don't know how all of it ties together as of yet and don't believe there is a WaA. If I understood the supply chain, I assume the marks would make more sense. As I mentioned briefly above, I know it was picked up in 1 of 3 places, however, how it got there is another story (Kanister's point). If I had to guess, I believe it was acquired in Germany or Czechoslovakia, but as mentioned, that's not uncommon. He worked motor pool, so could carry things with him easily. The interesting things are certainly where he picked it up, the stock repair with the correct serial number across the crack and the additional mark that I have not been able to find (maybe not interesting to everyone, but I find them curious). Something else interesting, and I know nothing about, one collector took a look at it and said there were blood marks (tiny rust pits caused by blood vs. water). Whether he was full of shit or not, I don't know. He used that to qualify that the gun was used in the war - I didn't dispute it. Thanks again for your info and time! 


Edited by GWick123, 20 September 2019 - 09:37 AM.

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#31 kanister

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 09:43 AM

...and the additional mark that I have not been able to find (maybe not interesting to everyone, but I find them curious).

Take a look at

 

il91.it

 

scrool the left window till "Marchi" and then "Legni".


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#32 GWick123

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 10:56 AM

Thanks, interesting stuff (although I couldn't read much). Also tried to find a contact email without luck. There was a contact in one of the links for another person - I did email them. A couple kinda close, but not a match.


Edited by GWick123, 20 September 2019 - 10:58 AM.

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#33 GWick123

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 11:52 PM

Kanister, I caught the light just right looking at the mark and am pretty sure it says "GA". I couldn't find anything referencing that mark. I did find that GA represented Hirsch, Kupferu. Messingwerk AG Finow, however, don't know how that would tie in. It was not in the list you referenced above either. Thoughts? Other potential sources? Thanks


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#34 GWick123

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 12:01 AM

Another functional question - there is a little round access port on the butt plate and a hole in the stock - what went into that hole?


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#35 kanister

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 01:01 AM

Another functional question - there is a little round access port on the butt plate and a hole in the stock - what went into that hole?


Attached File  P1020585.JPG   83.78K   1 downloadsAttached File  P1020586.JPG   80.49K   2 downloadsAttached File  P1020587.JPG   80.95K   3 downloadsAttached File  Bacchette MAB.JPG   92.29K   3 downloads


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#36 kanister

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 01:03 AM


Edited by kanister, 21 September 2019 - 01:24 AM.

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#37 GWick123

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 12:18 PM

Thanks for the pic Kanister - I could have guessed that, but figured it would be something else. Guess sometimes the most obvious! Definitely tight fit for everything but the rod.

 

Continuing the research, it was obviously made in 1943 (fluted 38/42) and by most accounts exported to the German army due to the 4UT44 stamp. 

 

"After occupation through the Germans and Mussolini 1943, Beretta began immediately to deliver weapons for the new armies. Also a lot of Beretta 1935 for the German Wehrmacht. The theory says, that almost all models with the "4/UT" proof mark were delivered to the Germans."  Quote from Ian @ forgottenweapons.com  I am assuming this meant all weapons and not just the 1935.

 

Still looking for the GA stamp. Hopefully one of my emails bares fruit (Beretta, etc.).


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#38 kanister

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 01:50 PM

I am sorry for Ian of Forgottenweapons because he spoke very well about a book of mine but I can't agree with him about his statement about the 4UT mark.

All guns produced in Italy between September 1943 and April 1945 were inspected by Italian inspectors (like 4UT but also Brescia proof mark and others), then the Germans established to whom these guns had to be delivered, both German or Italian army.

Only Beretta guns inspected by Germans had the mark WaA162:

 

German established also the quality  and quantity of guns to be produced allotting to each factory the necessary quantity of raw materials.

 

I like very much the Beretta Mod 34 and 35, but this is not the right place to speak about them: this is my mod.34 WaA162 the day I bought it.

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#39 GWick123

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 03:30 PM

Well he does say "Theory". Seems there are a lot of folks that subscribe to that theory, wrong or right. There was also a P38 that came back, my brother has that one. One other mark that looks familiar from the book (is the book yours?), is an 8 and a circled F on the side of the barrel. I did see a similar mark in the book, but seemed to be on different types of weapons. No WaA marks that I see. 


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#40 johnsonlmg41

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 08:25 PM

Germans used a lot of guns without marking them or "accepting" them.  Toward the end of the war the inspectors were on the production line.  Not many markings on MP3008's and like guns. 

 

The 4Ut markings add zero value to the guns sold recently here at auction.  38/42's are the most collectible of the series (in the US) with the fluted barrel.  It's apparent 2-5 guys got into a bidding war and the last of them seem to be continuing it.  After 2-3 high sales somehow it then becomes norm?  The market here is small enough I know of one guy who "created " a market out of one gun that continues to this day and he will bid them up in any auction to hold them up there.  Sort of a sole Hunt brother.  Not sure what happens when he's gone?    Admittedly it's fascinating to watch and I hope I can cash mine out one day before the crash to below 40K! LOL


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