fnforme Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 (edited) I've spent the last few months trying to decide which WW2 SMG to buy first and which variant. Military provenance is important to me, so I decided if it was going to be a Thompson it was going to be a military model. Last week Frank from Midwest Tactical sent out an e-mail with some pretty good deals on transferables he was listing on gun broker later that day. I bought the Savage he had for sale for $21,000 with 50/50 terms. It's US Property marked but since Frank brokers these guns he couldn't confirm if it had matching a matching upper and lower. The gun has been refinished, which scares me. However, I was offered an inspection period within which I could request a full refund. I can't wait to get it! Here's the auction page with photos. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/586593751 I would love to hear some tips of what I should look for when the gun arrives to my dealer so I can make an educated decision during the inspection period. If there isn't any pitting under the refinish job I think I got a pretty good deal considering what these are fetching. Prior to purchasing the Thompson, I bought an M2 carbine that's still pending transfer. The next addition will be a grease gun! Edited October 1, 2016 by fnforme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67ray Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 Nice piece! And great price. Here is the working link to the gunbroker ad: http://www.gunbroker.com/item/586593751 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 (edited) not a M1a1 expert, but i believe most M1a1's are refinished and if refinished odds are not matching #'s i dont believe ive seen a original finish M1a1/matching #'s in the 10 months ive been here i believe its a great price and the gun looks very nice. there is a Dewat on Sturm for about the same price and Ruben has had a few for $27k listed for many,many months congratulations Edited October 2, 2016 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirtyround Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 I by no means am a complete expert on these deals concerning condition and price as the market jerks around quickly. However... If you haven't personally seen this gun yet... Educated yourself, very thoroughly before the inspection process. Those on this board will chime in soon with the priorities. The pics aren't really of the kind and quality to assume or really confirm what you need to know other than its been extensively refinished. For example, you state you bought a Savage M1A1, the linked add says the paperwork states Auto Ordnance (?) might be nothing or a small thing... or can be a big deal. Once you are "in the know" and examining the gun, you may be in a better position to alter or negotiate your intent and or price your willing to pay. Congrats and Good Luck Brother!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwiifirearms Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 Cool gun. I am amazed at how bad people can be at taking pictures for the web. Rule # 1 do NOT use a white background it will wash out all the details of the darker item being photographed. It is really hard to tell but I suspect it was bead blasted and re-parkerized, maybe more than once. To me the markings don't look as deep as most Guns that went through just a typical single arsenal rebuild. Still seems like a fair price for a legit military gun, given what WH guns are bringing. I would much rather have this. As others said a truly matching original M1A1 isn't real common and likely to command a huge premium. Since the military refinished and Parkerized many of these, it could be considered just part of its history. At the end of the day what matters is, do you like it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ppgcowboy Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 Welcome aboard. The problem with one, is you have to have two, but having one to hold makes it easier to wait for number two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt Chopper Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 Very nice, you should get many years of enjoyment from it ! Congrads !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 The pictures are pretty bad did you ask for better detailed pictures of the gun? Spending $21K I would want nice detailed pictures which would help ease your decision making process. If the gun is solid and isn't a re-welded receiver I think its worth the money, they are a good investments and great shooters. I don't think mis-matched upper and lowers receivers on the M1 model is that big of a deal. Once you get it in your hands to inspect it you'll know if you made the right decision or not. Just my 2 cents. Congrats on your purchase! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 The photos definitely leave something to be desired, but it looks ok to me. Certainly refinished, and probably not an arsenal refinish, but I don't think that matters much at this price, unless it's a reweld. When dealing with a brokered firearm like this, the information is second hand, and while there is a 3-day inspection period, it sure would be a bummer to go through all of this, and then have to return it. I guess what I'm saying is that there is value in being able to inspect a firearm firsthand prior to purchase, although deals can be had with this style of sale. Just ask Colt Chopper... David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67ray Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 Well if you do get it and think it isn't worth it Frank may offer you some $$$ so he doesn't have to take it back. Don't think you will want to return it anyway. Don't get Frank's prices. He was asking $28k and takes $21k? That is a big diff. He has a WH up there with Buy It Now of $27,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 (edited) That looks like a brand new parkerizing job. Because a.) it's perfect and shows zero wear and b.) it's black and not grey and c.) it has no patina at all. An old army arsenal refinish will have a grey park that has discolored a little or has a slight varnish of old gun oil on it. And it will show little scuffs and handling marks. black park wasn't used a lot back in the old days Edited October 2, 2016 by buzz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 its $-3k under market value....so i think he got a bargain.... if it functions id see no reason to return it....you wont find one for that price with # matching and original finish(if those 2 combinations even exist on m1a1's) if you want original finish and # matching you need to pay $5k more and most likely get a 1928 instead (in 10 months ive only seen 2 1928's war guns w/ original finish and # matching).....most have been police guns to get in that condition stamps seem light, so id assume multiple refinishes....which i dont think would be unusual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 It would bother me that the left side receiver markings are almost completely obliterated. This is evidence that the metal was heavily buffed, probably more than once. Those markings were originally roll marked, and were generally pretty deep and always very distinct. All of that's gone, along with all of the original surface milling. True, most M1s and M1A1s were arsenal refinished. Once. This process did not include buffing. The photos are poor. In this day and age of excellent electronic photography, I can't help but feel there's a reason for that. I've occasionally sold a gun to someone who wanted to renegotiate the price once they had the piece in their hands. I won't allow that, but I'll always take a return within the inspection period. "A deal's a deal." When I'm about to spend a lot of money for a gun I always travel to have a look at the piece before the transfer process starts. Doing this has saved much consternation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim c 351 Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 While it may be true that this gun has been buffed or sand blaster, fear not.There is so much steel in an M1 gun that someone like PK can make it look like it left Savage yesterday and that includes deepening the letters and re applying original finished.If you don't believe me just ask TD what PK did to his gun.Jim CPs if it has been remanufactured (rewelded), send it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 If the gun is not a reweld then there is no reason to send it back. The price is very good and if it's a good solid gun then you're GTG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 If the gun is not a reweld then there is no reason to send it back. The price is very good and if it's a good solid gun then you're GTG 100% agree.....you will spend more next time and probably get the same thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 I'm a huge fan of the M1 & M1A1. I bought my M1A1 just for the heck of it from the same guy I bought my 28 from. Now that I've had it for a while, I would have a hard time deciding which is my favorite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DZelenka Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 The ad says professional refinish which just about guarantees it was refinished at least once after it left the military. The 811,xxx serial number is pretty high and the lower may not be numbered at all. My 774,xxx M1A1 has what I believe is a GI arsenal refinish (but no rebuild stampings) and has an un-numbered lower. Conversely, my 47,xxx M1 looks like it has been blasted a bit and has a non-GI park job and has a matching numbered lower. You won't know what you have until you get much better pictures or see the gun in person. I would request the pictures sooner rather than later. Pricewise, if it isn't a reweld, you are good to go. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eMGunslinger Posted October 4, 2016 Report Share Posted October 4, 2016 Just hope you have good luck dealing with Frank, I know more people who have gotten burned on deals that anything else. They don't represent what they sell very well a lot of times. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted October 4, 2016 Report Share Posted October 4, 2016 i bought 1 gun from him w/o issues......the other i tried to bid i suspected shill bidding, since someone drove up the prices beyond market value and then said they could not pay in less than 24 hours....then he wouldnt not honor my price when he offered it to me...he wanted me to pay the other bidders high price.....not saying it was him, but i think who ever the gun was brokered for saw it was going to sell for a bargain price and jacked the price..........i know this stuff happens all the time on any auction site.... overall he has a good reputation...if he didnt he wouldnt be around.......he has some bargains and is the only major dealer who really does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnshooter Posted October 4, 2016 Report Share Posted October 4, 2016 (edited) If Frank doesn't ever see the brokered gun in person, he's left with the photographic incompetence of his client. He sure is proud of his airplane, but if he actually uses it to travel to the guns, I'd rather see quality color photos of his merchandise, instead of the endless photos of him and the bird. Edited October 4, 2016 by mnshooter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted October 4, 2016 Report Share Posted October 4, 2016 Spiwak also has bad pics...when i asked him for more pics he told me its because he has a poor quality camera....makes me think he cant afford a $50 camera from Walmart.....my phone takes better pics than some of his..... Ruben is the only one who seems to put effort into it....want a premium price= give premium service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fnforme Posted December 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2016 The gun finally arrived at my dealer. This appears to be a rewat of some kind considering the slight finish discoloration around where the barrel meets the receiver. Seems to not be a reweld considering that the Form 3 shows Auto Ordnance, Bridgeport as the manufacturer and the receiver doesn't appear to be welded to me. It fires flawlessly and looks new. I'm so happy with this purchase and can't wait until I get to take it home. I can't figure out how to upload my photos of it from flickr.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted December 8, 2016 Report Share Posted December 8, 2016 (edited) The manufacturer on the paperwork means nothing. It's not reliable to use that information to tell anything about the gun. My 1940 Savage Commercial has "Colt Patent Firearms" listed as the manufacturer and yet the receiver has 100% correct savage markings for that time period. The NFA registry is loaded with errors. Edited December 8, 2016 by buzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fnforme Posted December 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2016 Hmm, that's disconcerting. Can someone please help me load pictures so I can get some input about the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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