Contemporary Colt TSMG Barrel/Cutts Replacement Fool Experts?

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

The thread on the Appleton, Wisconsin Police Department 1921 AC Colt Thompson with 1st pattern Cutts Compensator on a barrel that may or may not be Colt/AOC factory origin and with the witness mark slightly higher than the alignment mark on the receiver reminded me of this gunsmith who appears to specialize in Colt TSMG barrel and Cutts replacement.

 

Gary's Bunker Gunsmithing

 

"1921 Colt Thompson rebarrel
Posted on March 27, 2014
An early Colt Thompson, (S/N 11xx) came into the shop with a bulged barrel. Gary’s Bunker did an R&R on the barrel with a correct period replacement, timed and cross pinned the type I Cutts compensator. Gary’s Bunker entered into the NFA market back in 1981 with its first model 1928 TSMG. We have dedicated tooling and over 30+ years of experience building and restoring vintage Thompson SMGs. Contact us for a free estimate on your needs."

 

[TD.]

Excellent post. The only thing that jumps out at me is the nice bluing on the barrel attached to a receiver that appears to show some wear. Of course, an over all picture would be needed to make a real determination.

 

I recently noted in a story in Thompson Collectors Association (TCA) Newsletter VOL. 113, MAR. 15, 2000 the following statement: "Harry O'Connell, who made his share of barrels for Roger Cox in the 70's..."

 

Question: Who is Harry O'Connell?

 

Obviously, there is a major problem in the Thompson marketplace and community with how to identify an original barrel. Or more importantly, how to identify a replacement barrel?

 

To make matters more complicated there has never been any definitive proof offered on the question of AOC replacing original 21A barrels when installing Type 2 compensators. It this did occur (sometimes, most of the time, all the time) then you may be looking at a barrel probably manufactured by Colt (or someone else) in the late 1920's or 1930's, years after the last Thompson gun rolled off the assembly line. Would this barrel look exactly the same as one manufactured in 1921/1922? I tend to doubt it given the differences in barrels I see in original 21A Thompsons.

 

Of course, the pictures presented by the seller of the Appleton gun raise many questions in and of themselves. That said, I believe it is possible two very knowledgeable Thompson collectors or experts could examine this Thompson in-person and come to a different conclusion. Obviously, one of them would be wrong. That is what bothers me the most.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

I recently noted in a story in Thompson Collectors Association (TCA) Newsletter VOL. 113, MAR. 15, 2000 the following statement: "Harry O'Connell, who made his share of barrels for Roger Cox in the 70's..."

 

Question: Who is Harry O'Connell?

 

Obviously, there is a major problem in the Thompson marketplace and community with how to identify an original barrel. Or more importantly, how to identify a replacement barrel?

Bob Higbee's TCA article describes Harry O'Connell as "a very capable Dallas machinist and former Class 2 manufacturer, and former Class 3 dealer." The gist of Higbee's article seemed to be a caveat emptor story about doing business with Russell Jones of Allentown, PA for a Colt 1921 AC. The O'Connell made barrels apparently were easy to spot as reproductions because of their "non-Colt machining marks."

 

Not sure what Gary Bunker means by a "correct period replacement barrel." Is that a Colt 1921 barrel parted out from a torched Colt TSMG or a contemporary Richardson type barrel? If Bunker managed to line up the barrel and receiver lines using a Colt TSMG era barrel that had the index mark/drawline already affixed would be something to take note of.

 

Skepticism about the originality of a barrel just because there is a perfectly lined up drawline of barrel and receiver would be prudent, and conversely, a barely perceptible imperfect matching mines does not denote a replacement barrel.

 

Below is a March 202 thread on this subject.

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13868

Edited December 9, 2016 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[TD.]

Great past thread on the receiver and barrel index lines. Again, another area where we really do not have a definitive answer on all the questions raised. If not included, this thread needs to be in the pinned posts section.

 

I included Harry O'Connell's name in the above post to show that replacement Colt barrels have apparently been the norm for many years. I am not sure about the Colt machining marks. If those marks could be easily recognized on Colt barrels everyone could be an expert. I would guess O'Connell manufactured barrels as close as possible to the Colt product for Cox. If not, a polished and blued GI finned barrel would have been a much cheaper route. More importantly, an O'Connell barrel installed on a Colt gun in the 1970's could be as much as 40 years old today. If O'Connell did a good job manufacturing his Colt replacement barrels, this could make present day determination almost impossible. Does anyone have a Colt with a known O'Connell barrel? Or a known Gary's Bunker barrel? These and others are no doubt in circulation.

 

Looking at the receiver and barrel index lines on a Colt Thompson barrel is usually the first area to look at. If alignment is not present the value will decrease regardless of originality.

 

What is missing is a near fool proof way to determine originality. And with the Type 2 Compensator question still unresolved the problem only becomes worse.

 

Those that regularly attend the Thompson member organizations shows, NRA Conventions featuring a number of Colt guns, or gun shows like the recent SAR show in Phoenix that usually have a number of Colt's for sale or on display are able to study this product more closely and make better determinations on originality. Yes, it takes a lot of effort. Of course, sometimes enthusiasts or experts can disagree. Given today's prices - think the Appleton PD Colt - no one wants to make a mistake. Therein lies the problem!

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

I included Harry O'Connell's name in the above post to show that replacement Colt barrels have apparently been the norm for many years. I am not sure about the Colt machining marks. If those marks could be easily recognized on Colt barrels everyone could be an expert. I would guess O'Connell manufactured barrels as close as possible to the Colt product for Cox. If not, a polished and blued GI finned barrel would have been a much cheaper route. More importantly, an O'Connell barrel installed on a Colt gun in the 1970's could be as much as 40 years old today. If O'Connell did a good job manufacturing his Colt replacement barrels, this could make present day determination almost impossible. Does anyone have a Colt with a known O'Connell barrel? Or a known Gary's Bunker barrel? These and others are no doubt in circulation.

 

Looking at the receiver and barrel index lines on a Colt Thompson barrel is usually the first area to look at. If alignment is not present the value will decrease regardless of originality.

 

If O'Connell was known to Roger Cox as a source for aftermarket barrels he was surely known to J. Curtis Earl and other 1970's dealers like Fred Rexer, Irv Kahn, Ron Rudin and our own Ronald L. Kovar. But back in the 1970's a mint Colt 1921 could be had retail for $1,500-$1,800(?). The Colt TSMG would have to be in some hideous condition to warrant the expense of having O'Connell make a facsimile Colt barrel, remove existing barrel from the receiver, removing Cutts and then installing Cutts on new barrel.

 

If excellent reproduction Colt barrels were available, and as you state, "the norm for many years," how is it there are significant examples of Colt TSMGs in the marketplace for the last 50 years with replacement barrels (not WWII Savage/AOC) that do not approximate the look of the original Colt barrels? But again, who were these retail buyers back in the 1970's who had knowledge of the subtleties of the cooling fins of original Colt barrels? This was long before Roger Cox published the first book on Colt TSMG that dealt with identification of oem parts.

 

For the moment, Bob Higbee is the only source for the notion that a machinist (O'Connell) was producing facsimile Colt barrels for Cox or anyone else. Without any barrel on a Colt TSMG being positively identified as of O'Connell origin (or O'Connell claiming the barrel as his own*) this is just a story. However, if back in the 1970's Cox substituted newly made barrels for his stock of previously owned police Colt TSMGs, the drawline on all of these Colt TSMGs will match perfectly with the receiver line as the barrel line would have been added after the barrel was installed on the receiver. If we take Higbee's story at face value (and Gary Bunker's specialty) adding or subtracting value of a Colt TSMG by the drawlines matching would not be a reliable method to establish originality.

 

*

O'Connell Harry Machining

3116 Sylvan Ave

Dallas, TX 75212

(214) 747-1492

[anjong-ni]

Great topic. But if the collectors out there are depending on the placement of the barrel draw line in relation to the receiver draw line to determine originality...well...

It's easy to make them line up perfectly. Do it the same way the factory did it:

Strike the draw line on the receiver,

Fully tighten (torque) the barrel,

Pencil mark where they line up,

Remove the barrel,

Strike the drawline on the barrel, then install and pin the sight using the drawline for reference,

Re-install the barrel, tighten to draw marks.

Why did THEY do it twice?

Mass production is fascinating. It just worked out that way.

Our own product assembly line travels 1,000 feet from start to finish. Crosses over itself four times. Ends up 20' from where it started!..................Phil

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Remove the barrel,

Strike the drawline on the barrel, then install and pin the sight using the drawline for reference,

Re-install the barrel, tighten to draw marks.

 

From the 1927 Marcellus Thompson correspondence it appeared that the above sequence is what AOC wanted to follow when the 1st pattern Cutts was introduced.

 

The trick facing the gunsmith is aligning receiver and barrel drawlines when a barrel that already has a drawline that is not the factory installed barrel is placed on the receiver in alignment with the receiver drawline. How would the gunsmith remove the original drawline on the replacement barrel without leaving any telltale sign? Never installed surplus G.I. Savage barrels in the wrapper have stamped drawlines.

[reconbob]

Making a close copy of a round finned M1921 would be easy for any competent machinist

back in the 1970's or earlier before the advent of CNC machining. And if a gun sold for $1500

well likewise a new barrel could have been made for what? $75? $100? Back in the era of hands

on machining machinists took great pride in their work. Of course the CNC machinist of today

takes pride as well but it's just not the same because with CNC you never touch the piece you

are only pushing buttons on a control screen.

It has astonished me for years the great lengths and great skill devoted to faking, restoring,

etc. all types of guns, parts, etc.

A barrel made new to fix a Thompson back in 1975 would now be over 40 years old and

be difficult to detect if done well.

 

Phil - what does your 1000 ft. Assembly line make?

 

Bob

[TD.]

I believe a gunsmith with the capability to lengthen the chamber (if necessary) just a bit would have little trouble aligning an index line on a replacement barrel collar to the index line on the receiver. Removal of a very very small amount of metal from the barrel collar would let the barrel continue to turn on the receiver until located at a proper location for final tightening. Head space may not be a problem depending on closeness of fit and the amount of metal removed. A very thin metal crush shim may also do the trick, again depending on closeness of fit.

[anjong-ni]

"Never-installed GI barrels already have the stamped draw-line". Why would that be?

As Recon-Bob notes, it is impossible to re-install (re-torque) a Thompson barrel and have it re-align with the previous, original draw-mark. The torque goes from zero to max in one degree.

My opinion:

The "New-in-wrapper" Thompson barrels out there WERE installed in a matched upper receiver that was subsequently "scrapped", perhaps

because of some defect in the receiver...after installation, but before ever having sight or compensator pinned to them. They were salvaged...removed and re-packaged for use as "replacement parts".

 

Surely not every WW2-production Thompson went "bang" during the production-line function test. These guns were probably repaired by the "overnight shift" with non-matching parts, or were re-cycled. Ergo the "original kits" with draw-marks that don't align and non-matching serial numbers. Completely original guns, as assembled by the third shift.

 

Mistakes were obviously made. Surely not all guns were test-fired. Recon-Bob has shown us pictures of parts from kits that NEVER would have worked..... Phil

 

Bob, our plant makes "concrete masonry products". Four machines, 36 units per cycle, nine cycles a minute, 9 hours a day, five days a week. Components (cement, sand) start 50' up and units come out at ground level after a 1000' trip but only 20' away from the start. Inefficient, but deafening too.........P

Edited December 12, 2016 by anjong-ni

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

 

The "New-in-wrapper" Thompson barrels out there WERE installed in a matched upper receiver that was subsequently "scrapped", perhaps

because of some defect in the receiver...after installation, but before ever having sight or compensator pinned to them. They were salvaged...removed and re-packaged for use as "replacement parts".

 

It doesn't appear that there is much support for your theory that these OEM WWII barrels in cosmoline and wrappers were taken off TSMG receivers. Why would a barrel be installed on a 1928 receiver without a Cutts ever being installed? Surely a receiver would be rejected for some fault before installation of barrel. There doesn't seem to be any other explanation that the drawline on TSMG barrels were added before installation not after.

 

replacing or exchanging barrels thread:

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16835&hl=%2Bthompson+%2Bbarrel+%2Bmarkings&do=findComment&comment=141132

[reconbob]

There is a note on the ordnance drawing for the barrel pertaining to

marking the drawline but there are no additional details...

 

Bob

[anjong-ni]

I shall willingly defer to the majority.

...However...

As in this photo, the barrel chisel impact displaced metal into the "flange" area.

Stamping it while it was installed would be tough to do without nicking the receiver. And why even bother?

It appears that it was stamped "while it was not installed". I have several like this from parts kits.

 

Why would a "new, unused" barrel be randomly stamped before installation?

It the "hope" that it would perfectly align with the receiver draw mark on the next gun down the line?

Like winning the lottery by buying one ticket.

 

But, if that's how they did it, OK....Phil

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

To make matters more complicated there has never been any definitive proof offered on the question of AOC replacing original 21A barrels when installing Type 2 compensators.

 

There are records of revisions and alterations to the Colt 1921 barrel (even as late as 1935 and 1937)with particular reference to the 1932 Cutts Compensator threading of muzzle (see photo). There is no mention of machining off the sight pin grove that would be found on all 15,000 barrels originally installed on Colt TSMGs. This would necessitate new barrels for Colt TSMG ordered or sent back for installation of the 1932 Cutts.