Heard Rumor

[OldFalGuy]

about a 99% Colt 1921AC in Houston unfired-

what would the value of something like this be worth if as rumored. Understand serial number is 69XX.

 

Sounds like a find.

 

M

[gijive]

It would be worth quite a bit if is really 99% original condition.

 

I personally don't believe the unfired condition description that occasionally arises when one hears of these mint guns. As Roger Cox used to say, if it was purchased and owned by a police department it defies logic that they at least didn't put a few rounds through it at the range to see if it worked; otherwise, why would they have purchased the gun?

 

Sounds nice, but I would be skeptical of the unfired condition.

[OldFalGuy]

I agree and the pedigree search will certainly be done on this one in spades. I looked at one on a major Thompson dealers website which states it is 96% and not for sale with many many scratches on the receiver or which these new gun does not purport to have. I figure I will see and buy this one myself before long and if interest rate should suddenly jump up (right, I can only hope) but alas the gods of the ecomony just won't let it happen since there is NO inflation to speak of phffft 3% is nothing.

[Reenactor]

I've got #6942, an AC, so would be interested eventually to find out about this close cousin. Mine was a 90% gun in 1991, but I've fired thousands of live rounds, plus thousands of blank rounds in probably 2 dozen reenactments since then , so it's probably only worth 5 times what I paid for it, not 7 times. If you don't play with it and make eyes pop at the range, what's the point?

[Hyper Sniper]

I Must say I have to agree on the unfired statice, I truly can't comprehend going back in time, and being on the police force, and a new type of Machine gun comes down the pipe a subgun with a drum, everyone from the captain, to the mop boy would want to at least see it fired.

 

I Sold 6959 a few months ago and it was a Navy, but I do have a piece that was in a collection that was a close friend of Roger Cox's and is probably the finest all original Thompson I know of a true 98% not hardly a scratch from the breech to the comp.

 

I have turned down a hefty sum for this gun, so good luck on locking down this gun.

Edited September 15, 2005 by Hyper Sniper

[JimFromFL]

My Thompson is unfired too.... well, it is since the last time I took it to the range. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

QUOTE

Sold 6959 a few months ago and it was a Navy, but I do have a piece that was in a collection that was a close friend of Roger Cox's and is probably the finest all original Thompson I know of a true 98% not hardly a scratch from the breech to the comp.

Hyper

 

What is the serial number of this 98% Colt TSMG and where were you and this Tommy in 1992 when the TCM voted #167 "The #1 most perfect Thompson in the U.S.," per Terry Williams and Jim Falter.

 

Of course all firearms are fired before leaving the factory anyway. But how an 80+ year-old piece of blued steel could avoid basic handling wear (even if not fired since the factory) by owners, who had no reason to suspect the value of the weapon skyrocketing, strains credulity.

[Hyper Sniper]

Arthur,

 

I am not advocating that the gun was unfired, but just stating the gun is in fact pristine, it does have a few light handling marks, but doesn't have any forward of the breech, the only marks foreward is a little light wear under the compensator.

 

As far as going to shows I don't get out much, nor did I say it was the best in the world, but it is the best I have seen. The bottom line is it is a fine piece of history and is my baby.

 

It is a 21AC and the serial number is 7011 I just bought it a year ago, and was complete with the FBI case(a Books case) a new serial numbered L drum, and a new parts tin with all parts including the original wax paper, cleaning rod, and many books, and catologs, 18rnd shot mag and a new box of peters shot shells, the box that is shown in the cox book, along with a signed copy of cox's book thanking Mr. Curtiss for his help in the book.

 

Mr. Curtiss bought this gun from Roger in the early 80's and spent many years collecting a complete package.

 

I am just happy to have been able to add this fine piece to my collection, just a proud papa that is all I am saying (not that this is the finest Thompson in the world)

 

D

[45wheelgun]

QUOTE (Hyper Sniper @ Sep 14 2005, 10:41 PM)

...stating the gun is in fact pristine, it does have a few light handling marks, but doesn't have any forward of the breech, the only marks foreward is a little  light wear under the compensator...It is a 21AC and the serial number is 7011 I just bought it a year ago, and was complete with the FBI case(a Books case) a new serial numbered L drum, and a new parts tin with all parts including the original wax paper,  cleaning rod, and many books, and catologs, 18rnd shot mag and a new box of peters shot shells, the box that is shown in the cox book, along with a signed copy of cox's book thanking Mr. Curtiss for his help in the book.

Wow, that sounds like a great gun and a really nice package. I would love to see some pictures of your baby. thanks for sharing.

[Emmagee]

A friend of mine in Dallas, a C3 dealer, has a 21/28 Navy overstamp that is a solid 98% gun, there is a bit (very MINOR) of actuator wear on top of the receiver and some very light, and I mean light, not through the bluing scratches on teh receiver. They are so minor they shouldn't be called scratches, but I don't know what else to call them. He was told by a big Colt Thompson collector in the area that it has to be one of the nicest transferable Colt's in the country. I believe he also has a a complete paper trail from when the gun was purchased in the '30's along with the FBI case the PD kept the gun in, original L frum etc. It really is all original and beautiful.

[TD.]

Hyper Sniper,

I noted in Gordon's book that J. Curtiss Earl donated a minature Thompson, NO 7011, to the Old Idaho Penitentiary Museum, Boise, Idaho. Here is a link to the Museum and the J.Curtis Earl Memorial Exhibit:

 

http://www.idahohistory.net/earl.html

 

One thing you must be very careful about when speaking of 98% and higher Colt Thompsons is the possibility of a high grade professionally done re-bluing job. The real danger is if the re-blue was performed years ago and now has some age to it. Unfortunately, what can happen is a gun will change hands several times over the years and the current owner (and now seller) really believes the finish is original.

[Hyper Sniper]

TD,

I appreciate the caution, and I have seen many of them as you speak of, but here is the thing

When Roger cox was writing his book Mr Curtiss helped him in many ways with information, and help with his book which is noted in the personal signed copy #52 of the book, and supplement that is part of this collection. Mr. Curtiss at the time owned a 1921A SN 1852 which is front, and back of the Roger Cox book.

I have with this collection the letter from Roger to Mr. Curtiss thanking him for his collabortion and appologizing for the delay of returning the original photo's that were used in the book, as well as the box of Peters shotshells in which I still have. There is alot of paper following this gun including the original bill of sale in 1982 so you can see the gun was brought to the Atlanta area in 82 and remained in his collection from that time.

 

Mr. Curtiss was a bigtime collector of Colts not just Thompson's, and would not want it refinished, and in his passing they were brought to aution all being original, so there is no way this gun has been refinished, He then sold 1852 I don't know why, but it has been said that he purchased this gun because it was the jewell he was looking for. The gun does show some handling marks, and light scratches, and the wood is only around 95% but the gun retains most of the blueing, but has the selector ware, and about 1/2" of blueing gone around the front of the actuater, so it is not perfect. The beauty of this gun is the original bright blueing showing no patina, or red if you will, again it is not perfect, and there are certainly better guns, but one of the better ones I have seen.

 

D

 

 

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

TD,

 

Exactly. Just in this thread we have three examples Colt TSMG's in purported 98%, or better, original condition. A Colt TSMG that was re-blued/refinished in the 1960's/70's would appear to be in this type of condition if never handled since that time. The easiest thing for a Colt TSMG to acquire is a scratch even if it was never fired since leaving the factory. Who would have handled these firearms in the 1920's and 1930', when they were originally sold, with cotton gloves, or made sure the firearm rested in an environment with any other consideration than to protect it from theft? When a former PD TSMG has zero wear to the buttstock butt plate then something is amiss and so too would a TSMG with more butt plate wear than would indicate from the rest of the firearm.

 

Even if a PD armorer took a never fired TSMG down for cleaning, he sure didn't wear gloves, and, therefore, would have the oil residue from his hands left behind the grip frame. The traditional inescapable area of bluing wear.

 

I don't believe the owners of these 98% TSMG's can unequivocally state that these examples have never been refinished regardless of how much paper work they have documenting the whereabouts of the firearm since 1921/22. A 95% Colt TSMG would be a miraculous achievement in preservation never mind an example with only two hardly noticed blemishes.

[Hyper Sniper]

If it makes you feel better then call it 95% call it what you want! but it has not been refinished. This gun does have buttplate ware, and I didn't decribe every mark on the gun because I am not selling it. Lets call it 95% when this subjective % is put on a gun Thompson or otherwise, It is decribing the amount of finish ware on the gun right, it does not mean the gun has no marks, it does as I have said many times, but have not sat here an decribed every one of them in detail to show where the 2 or 3 or 5% of finish is missing.

 

I find it hard to believe that there are people who believe they have seen every TSMG in this country, and know there exact condition, or who has the best in the US I will tell you this! there is not one person in this country who has seen them all, so to say there couldn't be one in the world oh well getting off the subject.

 

I understand what is being said , but maybe what we should say is 98% in the world of 80+ year old Thompson's It is a nice gun what ever % it falls under.

[John Jr]

QUOTE (Hyper Sniper @ Sep 15 2005, 08:08 PM)

If it makes you feel better then call it 95% call it what you want! but it has not been refinished. This gun does have buttplate ware, and  I didn't decribe every mark on the gun because I am not selling it. Lets call it 95% when this subjective % is put on a gun Thompson or otherwise, It is decribing the amount of finish ware on the gun right, it does not mean the gun has no marks, it does as I have said many times, but have not sat here an decribed every one of them in detail to show where the 2 or 3 or 5% of finish  is missing. I find it hard to believe that there are people who believe  they have seen every TSMG in this country, and know there exact condition, or who has the best in the US I will tell you this! there is not one person in this country who has seen them all, so to say there couldn't be one in the world oh well getting off the subject. I understand what is being said , but maybe what we should say is 98% in the world of 80+ year old Thompson's  It is a nice gun what ever % it falls under.

Hyper Sniper, remember Arthur Fleegenhauser is a colt whore of the first order and will always be one. He doesn't believe that there can be a gun out there that is truly 95% or better. Anyway...

 

 

Who wants these old worthless patent date mags? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif

[Hyper Sniper]

John,

Did not mean to sound snippy, but this gun came straight out of the PD from the Alliance Ohio Police department by Roger Cox in 1982 and purchase by Mr. Gordon Curtiss at that time, and has not been tampered with end of story.

 

I wonder why J Curtis Earl chose my exact serial number for his miniture?

D http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Hyper,

 

You are of course correct. The #167 TSMG , as owned by Falter/Williams, being "The #1 Colt TSMG in the U.S." as was claimed by TCN back in 1992, is a silly grandiose statement. Yet it still lingers on in GH's serial number book as a definitive description of that particular TSMG.

 

But it sure would help if we all were using the same standards of evaluation before we attached condition ratings to 80+ year old firearms that were never intended to be treated as a hot house plant.

[TD.]

OldFalGuy - I hope we have not hijacked your thread http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/huh.gif

 

NO 1852 - now that would be one nice Thompson to own. I re-read the TCA Newsletter concerning NO 1852. It has certainly passed through a number of interesting hands and the paper trail with it is very impressive. I agree that it is highly unlikely NO 1852 was ever re-blued. The fact it is on the cover of Roger's now collectors edition book makes it very noteworthy (and pricey). However, condition is another matter and, unfortunately, something very subjective in the Thompson field. I have never seen NO 1852 so I could offer no opinion as to condition. However, based on what I have read (your post included) I would not expect this to be a 98% plus Colt Thompson. With that said I must admit I am very conservative when it comes to the grading of firearms. Arthur is directly on point when it comes to the use and condition of former police guns. Roger has a section in his book on collecting Thompsons dealing with the condition of police guns. I have been around "duty guns" most of my adult life. Let me state that duty guns are not treated like collectors items. A simple trip or two to the range each year can make a new gun into a 90% or less gun very quickly - not to mention the times it does go to the field for that weekend surveillance.

 

Would it be possible for you to post a picture or two of NO 1852? I am sure everyone would like to see it again.

Thanks,

[TD.]

Jr - are those old worthless patent date magazines going for $35 bucks apiece http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[John Jr]

QUOTE (TD. @ Sep 15 2005, 08:35 PM)

Jr - are those old worthless patent date magazines going for $35 bucks apiece http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Then I want $100 each for them. colt greed!

 

LOL!

 

http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif

[October1971]

Roger Cox told me years ago that he didn't generally use a % evaluation on Colt TSMGs precisely because of the difference in actual wear vs abuse vs peculiarities with the Colt TSMG. I have handled and sold many Colts over the years and certainly don't profess to be an expert on them. But I've come to a few conclusions which seem to make since involving this nostalgic gun:

 

1. I've seen what would otherwise be 98% original Colts except for severe scratches around the pivot plate on right side of lower receiver.

(Most are probably attributable to PD armorers who didn't have a clue how to spread the springs in order to remove pivot plate. Hence the

screwdriver gouges around pivot plate spring.) I generally discount about 10% to 20% on value if an otherwise pristine gun has these

awful gouges.

 

2. I also believe that a lot of otherwise pristine Colts, that were only test fired by a PD, seem to have a lot of blue gone on the compensator and

on rear pistol grip. Answer: I can visualize a rookie cop in the police armory asking the armorer: "Can I hold that gun?" The two most

common possible "sweaty hands" scenarios would be someone holding the gun in horizontal "gangster stance (with sweaty hand wrapped

around rear pistol grip, hence the missing blue on the lower frame. The other scenario is two cops sitting around Bull S..... with each other

holding the palm of there hand around the muzzle compensator while TSMG is resting on floor on butt plate. Hence, the almost no blue

around the compensator because the sweaty hand(s) held it so often. Even though gun hardly ever fired.

 

3. I've seen the largest discrepency, even from long time gun dealersm in describing Colt TSMG condition vs most other conventional firearms.

Forget the reblueing and forgery for a moment. Just the failure to accurately describe the bad and good points on a Colt can be very misleading.

 

I try to use a combination of:

1. the normal definition of % of overall blue

2. Then describe the pivot plate area, the wear on rear grip frame, the compensator muzzle area, the wear under the actuator (indicates fairly accurately how much gun has been fired) and condition of bore, and finally the wood.

 

Hope this helps a little FWIW.

 

 

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

QUOTE

1921A SN 1852 which is front, and back of the Roger Cox book

Hyper

 

 

#1852 is actually "inside" the cover of Cox's book while #5290 is on the cover. But the fact that it has excellent documentation and featured in Cox's book certainly adds a lot of cache. However, even looking at the black and white photos in Cox's book, it doesn't appear to be in any better condition than numerous other existing examples of Colt TSMG's.

[Hyper Sniper]

TD,

 

The gun I am speaking of is serial number 7011 the 1852 was also owned by the man my gun came from, and from what I understand was sold to buy this gun because it was in alot better shape. 1852 is no where near the condition of this gun.

 

Arthur,

as far as grading on the same page I couldn't agree more, but unfortunatly I guess I am grading on there scale when you see one. I am saying if someone says there TSMG is in 90% condition my gun is in far better shape, so maybe I am a product of conditioning. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cool.gif

 

D

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

October,

 

Yes. Colt TSMG's have traditionally been advertised, before the existence of the Internet and on-line pics, with the amount of bluing wear to pivot, behind grip, actuator wear on top of receiver, and Cutts or muzzle wear. The wood was usually ignored. But as far as the abuse to the pivot plate leaving behind tell tale scratches, I have found that to be less apparent on Colt TSMG's than buttstock screw scratches to the bottom of the frame.

 

Hyper,

 

I didn't think you were talking about #1852 as the gun in question but rather #7011. Even Cox never accounted for #7011 when it left Auto-Ordnance. Perhaps GH can now add another MIA Colt TSMG to his register as an Ohio PD specimen in unusually preserved condition.

 

J.J.

How many XX and XXX round mags can you buy for your Colt made Mattel Toy for $100?

[Hyper Sniper]

Arthur,

It is on page 7 of Roger Cox's 1986 supplement to the Thompson Submachine Gun By Roger Cox and is fully documented in the last edition of GH's book.