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Colt Era Long Cleaning Rods


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I have found no written documentation that allows a consumer to positively identify an original Colt era cleaning rod. Current and past books and periodicals are extremely lacking in this area (please correct me if I overlooked something). The general consensus is an original cleaning rod is 20.25 inches in length. Yes, you can find out that a rod shorter than 20.25 and made of brass or brass and steel or steel is most likely a WWII military issue cleaning rod. Aside from that it is a real buyer’s beware market.

 

The reason buyers must be careful is because reproductions have been part of the marketplace for many years now. Unfortunately, none of the reproductions are marked as such. Prior to the introduction of reproduction rods, this was an easy question to answer.

 

The current reproduction rod on the market by Gordon Herigstad is marketed “…as my own exact reproduction of the original “LONG TYPE” cleaning rod…” Determining why anyone that is involved with the Thompson gun as much as Gordon would want to place on the open market an exact unmarked reproduction item is beyond my pay grade. If Gordon’s advertisement is correct then all would be wise to purchase one of his $100 rods and be done with it. Those that have an original long Colt era cleaning rod with provenance from an original owner obtained many years ago are just out of luck. Perhaps there is a way to tell one of Gordon’s rods from an original rod, but first we have to find a rod whose originality is without question.

 

Shown below are pictures of Gordon’s cleaning rod. Note the slot for the cleaning patch appear to be squared on both ends. I have an e-mail where Gordon states all long cleaning rods with slots that have rounded ends are fake. Is this true? If so, we have a standard. But no one has ever put this in a published writing so it makes me think this description may not be all encompassing.

 

Gordon a.jpg Gordon b reproduction.jpg Gordon c.jpg

 

During the last several months some long cleaning rods described and offered as original rods have been offered on ebay. The first one offered is described as “…from a Connecticut Police department with a Colt 1921a gun that was purchased from Auto Ordinance {sic}.

 

I have posted pictures from this advertisement below. The top rod is described as the original – note how the slots are rounded on the ends. The bottom rod is described as one of Gordon’s reproduction rods – note how the end of one slot is rounded and one end is squared. Is this really one of Gordon’s reproduction rods?

 

EBAY #1

 

Dec 2013 a Top Original.JPG Dec 2013 b.JPG Dec 2013 c.JPG

 

After comparing the above rods with Gordon’s reproduction rod, above, it appears we have at least three types of rods on the market based on solely the shape of the slot: squared, rounded and squared and rounded.

 

The next long cleaning rod offered on ebay as original provided no provenance. Note how the slot is rounded on both ends. Note also on the loop end how the end of the rod appears to round or rounded. All the other rods pictured and shown above have what appears to be a flat or straight edge at the end of the round loop. Does this part of the rod contain a measurement we could use to gage authenticity?

 

EBAY #2

 

ebay Feb 2014 a.JPG ebay Feb 2014 b.JPG ebay Feb 2014 c.JPG ebay Feb 2014 d.JPG

ebay Feb 2014 e.JPG ebay Feb 2014 f.JPG

ebay Feb 2014 g.JPG

 

The next rod offered on ebay is described as a reproduction and was priced accordingly. Note how the slot has rounded corners and the end of the loop is flat. The question that comes to mind immediately is: Who made this reproduction rod?

 

EBAY #3

 

ebay reproduction a.JPG ebay reproduction b.JPG ebay reproduction c.JPG

 

The next pictures are taken directly from this Board’s FAQ section, above. The top rod is described as the original; the bottom rod as the reproduction. The bottom appears to be a Gordon reproduction but that is just a guess on my part. Note how the slot on the top or original rod is squared on one end but rounded on the other. We have seen this combination before. And it was described as a REPRODUCTION rod.

 

Cleaning Rod compare Top Original.JPG

 

I now understand why none of the current or previous authors that specialize in the Thompson submachine gun have never stated unequivocally in print what was an original long rod and what was a reproduction rod. The reason is because no one seems to know the answer with any authority. Check out the past posts on the Board for this subject. The answers are all over the place. However, one important piece of information did surface about the reproduction long cleaning rods from our own Greg Fox. It appears Class Three dealer and one time Thompson enthusiast Terry Williams did market a reproduction long cleaning rod in the 1980’s. If Greg still has the rod he purchased from Terry and is absolutely sure it is the one he purchased from Terry many years ago, pictures of this reproduction rod would certainly go a long way to identify one reproduction rod on the market. If anyone else has a Terry Williams reproduction rod and will post pictures that will give us even more information to solve how to identify the Williams reproduction long cleaning rod.

 

Also stated in some of the older posts by Ron Kovar was a reference to a person named “Roger out of Tenn. back in the 90’s” that may have also manufactured or sold reproduction long cleaning rods. Perhaps Ron could expound on this as another potential source of reproduction rods that have caused havoc in this area.

 

We have enough members on this board that own original Colt era accessories with a known provenance we should be able to identity original equipment. Chuck Schauer posted long ago that Auto-Ordnance may have used more than one vendor to manufacture cleaning rods. I agree this is strong possibility. Even the same vendor may have made different variations of the long rod if the manufacturing process took place at different times or years apart. I doubt that Auto-Ordnance would care if the end of the slot was squared or rounded. What difference does it make? (where have I heard that :)

If we can identify the reproductions, we very well may find a couple of variations that are original.

 

If we have enough members with known original and reproduction rods participate in this thread we can go a long way to solving this mystery. Given original rods can easily sell for over $1000, we need to have some type of assurance we are buying something that is worth the money. Let's expand our knowledge base!

Edited by TD.
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TD

 

I have four of these including the Terry Wiliams reproduction rod. Three came with the 21 parts and items I acquired from the MSP and the prison (SPSM) at Jackson MI years ago. Those 3 are identical. The Williams rod has a radiused end in the closed loop and a rounded patch slot. There are other differences if you look closely. There is no documentation to show the MSP/Jackson Prison rods are originals but I think they are. I can post pictures of them if it helps.

 

GF

Edited by 1921A
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Greg,

I hoped you would see this thread.

 

That is enough provenance for me - long cleaning rods obtained from the state police and prison system years ago that owned Colt's. Please post a lot of pictures, if possible, with the three original rods together in some of the pictures. Close-up pictures would be great.

 

Pictures of the Terry Williams reproduction rod would be greatly appreciated too. Feel free to use arrows on the pictures to point out the differences on the originals, if possible. Do you recall if Terry had a lot of these rods at gun shows?

 

I posted a lot of pictures from different sources with my original post. Can you tell which rods may be original or a reproduction based on the rods you have? I think it possible we may find an original rod that does not match other original rods or any known reproduction rods.

 

All good stuff!

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Here is a picture of the cleaning rod I received when I purchased Colt # 8074. The sheriffs dept purchased the gun in 1929 & I bought it from them in 1989. I still have the gun and the original web gear and magazines they bought with the gun in 1929. I have a copy of the original sales order and a copy of the original check when they bought the gun. The gun is in excellent shape and shows little evidence of use. Thus, I would find it unusual that the cleaning rod would be a military replacement. The hole is round on both ends and the rod tip is beveled. I hope this helps.

 

post-4519-0-56879300-1393279405_thumb.jpg

post-4519-0-49177000-1393279649_thumb.jpg

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TD,

 

A great idea for research and for clarification.

I bought my FBI case in early 1979. Purchased from J. Hansen's shop in Southport, CT. It was said to have originated at Boston FBI. The rod has literally not been removed from the case since I purchased it. Hence there is come crud on it at the top of the rod loop from the retaining strap with the snap closure and near the end of the rod from the fixed retaining loop.

 

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/Long%20Brass%20Rods/b75ed201-d7bf-447b-b5ad-815ee5585b79.jpg

 

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/Long%20Brass%20Rods/eb99dd67-b364-4579-b9ad-4bd58ed18493.jpg

 

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/Long%20Brass%20Rods/05bcb18f-e880-4d06-be3a-b1fde6614ab3.jpg

 

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/Long%20Brass%20Rods/015.jpg

 

This other rod is a repro that I purchased as a repro from a club member at one of the early Ohio TCA shows. It has the rounded slot opening and the rounded end in the loop.

 

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/Long%20Brass%20Rods/repo1.jpg

 

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/Long%20Brass%20Rods/repo2.jpg

 

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/Long%20Brass%20Rods/repo3.jpg

 

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/Long%20Brass%20Rods/repo4.jpg

 

Hope any of this helps. If you need more pics email.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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wwl,

Thank you for sharing your long cleaning rod with us. A couple of questions and additional requests.

 

1. What is the exact length of your rod? I am guessing 18.75" based on your picture but I want to sure

2. Does the original receipts when the Thompson was purchased in 1929 specifically reference the cleaning rod?

3. Did the original police department purchase a hard case or canvas case and did you obtain these items?

4. Can you take and post a close up picture of the rod loop?

5. Can you take and post a close up picture of the end closest to the slot?

 

This is a very interesting rod. I am assuming it is brass, please correct me if I am wrong. I am sure everyone would like to learn more about it.

 

All good stuff!!!

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TD,

 

I took a few more pics of the areas that you suggested. There does seem to be some type of bump at the center of the flat end.

 

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/Long%20Brass%20Rods%202/014.jpg

 

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/Long%20Brass%20Rods%202/011.jpg

 

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/Long%20Brass%20Rods%202/013.jpg

 

I took a pic of whatever was on one side after I cleaned the crud off both sides. The other side seemed to be plain.

 

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/Long%20Brass%20Rods%202/017.jpg

 

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/Long%20Brass%20Rods%202/018.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Bill,

Thank you for the additional pictures.

 

I am attaching a picture I obtained several years ago of what I was told was an original Colt era cleaning rod. I don't know the provenance but will state It looks a lot like Bill's rod, above, complete with square ends on the slot (not pictured). Please note the metal bump or protrusion in the center of the rod at the loop end.

D OriginallongTSMGcleaningrod016.jpg

 

I know we have a lot of members on this board with Colt Thompson's and long cleaning rods. Now we have some specific areas of the rod to inspect. The type of slot (squared or rounded or both) and the loop end to see if this metal bump is present. I would also like for you to look at the last two pictures Bill posted. Please note how the large or cleaning end of the rod (for lack of a better description) is pinned to the rod shaft. What you are seeing in Bill's pictures is the end of pin as it was flattened, ground and polished into the rod. I believe this is also important.

 

At this point I think it very possible original Colt era rods may exist without any of the three features I highlighted above. However, with your participation we may be able to draw some pretty good conclusions as to original features at the end of this thread. And make it easier to identify the older reproduction rods that seem to have flooded the marketplace years ago.

 

This is also a good opportunity to get your play toys out of the safe :)

 

 

 

 

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wwl,

Thank you for the additional pictures. It does help.

 

Looking at the rod tip it appears to me that there is a round mark, like where a brass pin may be inserted, toward the end of the rod. I know it is hard to take close up pictures without a MACRO setting on your camera. What I am thinking is the bigger end found on most longer cleaning rods may have come loose and fallen or broken off at some point. Most long rods are around 20.25 inches and your rod is 18.75 inches. That bigger end would account for the difference in length. Would you look at your rod with this thought in mind and let us know what you think. In addition, would you compare the loop end to the post by aut-ord-co, above, and let us know if the end of the rod at the loop end has a small bump or metal protrusion in the center.

 

Since no one else has chimed in, I have to assume for the moment this is a one of a kind type rod.

 

This thread has more information on the long Colt era cleaning rod than can be found in any publication. What I find published is the Colt era rod is 20.25" long and the military rod is 16.25". Does that type of information really help anyone determine if the $1500 rod they are thinking about purchasing is original? Or a $20 show special from 25 years ago? Or one of Gordon's $100 rods left outside on the back porch for a couple of months this winter to tarnish and show a little age? The more members that contribute, the more we will know about this subject. Look at the rod that was included with your hard case or you purchased outright to complete your package. Use Bill's pictures as a model of pictures to take and share with the Board. The results of this thread can help everyone.

 

All good stuff!

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ineverlistentoFM,

Thank you for the pictures. I am going to assume you have no question about the provenance of this rod, i.e., came out of a PD with a Colt in the hard case, known history, small number of owners, etc.

 

Now we have a long rod with a slot with rounded ends. I can tell from the pictures it appears there is no metal bump or protrusion in the center of the rod at the loop end. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

I would like for you to look at the last two pictures aut-ord-co or Bill posted above. Please note how the large or cleaning end of the rod (for lack of a better description) is pinned to the rod shaft. What you are seeing in Bill's pictures is the end of pin as it was flattened, ground and polished into the rod. Can you inspect your rod for this pin and post a close-up picture. It may only be visible on one side. Can you also post a picture of the entire cleaning end.

 

Can you also measure your rod and provide an exact measurement?

 

I know, a lot of questions and requests. But we are making progress!

 

 

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TD To answer your questions: 1. the end of the rod looks as if the end was damaged or cut off as its a bit uneven. 2. The end of the loop does not have a protrusion were it circles to come back to the rood body. I had not paid any attention to this rod since I put it into my display with #8074 and all accessories in 1989. My conclusion is that this may be a cleaning rod, but not original to Colt Thompsons.

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wwl,

Thank you for the additional information. I am very open minded about this process so I am not discounting your rod. However, there is a rod similar to yours that we can discount as being original.

 

Board member DLansky sent me the following pictures of a rod that he obtained with the purchase of one of his Colt Thompsons. He was not sure about the originality of the rod but did admit he had not seen one like it previously. As fate would have it a visit to his home by long time Thompson enthusiast Chuck Olson solved the mystery. Not only did J. Curtis Earl reproduce compensators, he reproduced cleaning rods. Shown below is a cleaning rod that Earl had made and included with some of the Thompson guns he sold. Earl gave several of these rods to Chuck many years ago. DLansky did not include the overall measurement. Hopefully, he will see this post and let us know the overall length. It appears to be made out of steel. Perhaps he can answer that question too. A big thank you to David and Chuck for this bit of Thompson trivia. How many members have a rod like this?

 

Earl 2.jpg Earl 1.jpg

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Still trying to get useable pictures of the rods I have. I found 5 including one I know to be a Terry Williams reproduction - came directly from him in 1986 with one of his cases. The Williams rod is stamped #7 - he may have numbered them. I know he made 50 replica FBI boxes so maybe he made 50 rods. I can't seem to get the phone camera to take detailed enough pictures but the sun is shining today so I'll try it outside and post later. Still having problems with pictures - I'm not much on computers and cell phones! Here is some information on the rods I have: Michigan State prison Rods (3) 1. LOA 20.25" 2. Squared patch slot. (looks like broach cut after milling slot) 3. No visible bump and no radius on end of closed loop. (hard to see) 4. Threaded end for brush appears to be pinned to rod. 5. All three of these rods appear identical. Terry Williams replica 1. LOA 20.25" 2. Rounded patch slot 3. Radius on end of closed loop 4. Threaded brush tip is slightly different profile than prison rods.

 

Edited by 1921A
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Another one on eBay. Says its the real deal.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Colt-Thompson-Sub-Machinegun-Brass-Cleaning-Rod-FBI-Police-Case-1920s-/251463389427?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8c62d0f3

 

Sorry not a link but will cut and past into your browser. Well, maybe a link after all.

Edited by Banjo
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Another one on eBay. Says its the real deal.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Colt-Thompson-Sub-Machinegun-Brass-Cleaning-Rod-FBI-Police-Case-1920s-/251463389427?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8c62d0f3[/size]

 

Sorry not a link but will cut and past into your browser. Well, maybe a link after all.[/size]

 

Seller says "not a reproduction" but it has the exact same features as a replica long rod produced in Tennessee in the 1980s. The end of the closed loop has a radius, known originals do not. The patch slot is round at both ends. Known originals are broach cut (squared ends). The profile of the jag tip is noticeably larger than the originals, most replicas were paterned from a brass military rod.

 

With original rods bringing 1K plus and reproductions from the 70's and 80's known to exist, it's buyer beware! The intent here is not to trash the seller but rather to educate the buyer. Looks like TD's "cleaning rod" thread was timely.

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Another one on eBay. Says its the real deal.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Colt-Thompson-Sub-Machinegun-Brass-Cleaning-Rod-FBI-Police-Case-1920s-/251463389427?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8c62d0f3

 

Sorry not a link but will cut and past into your browser. Well, maybe a link after all.

 

The Ebay seller other items for sale are around 28 children dresses and a couple pairs of shoes and the "original Thompson cleaning rod".

 

Quite the interesting mix of items for sale.

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OK not sure how much this will help or not.

 

Top to bottom are Top Gordon reproduction, Middle long rod sold to me with a Police Case about 10 years ago and then bottom is from Warren Kreiser collection. I believe I have another but could not put my fingers on it right now, been moving things.

 

 

Tips 1.jpeg

 

Loops.jpeg

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We have made some progress. I have edited the first post by naming the three ebay auctions by number. This will allow us to refer to the auctions by number and allow everyone to be on the same page. I also added a few more pictures to what I have labeled ebay auction no. 2.

 

DLansky posted some additional information on the J. Curtis Earl rod. Where else can you find this information!

 

1921A provided some great information. When he has pictures ready to post I am sure we will learn a lot more.

 

SIG pictures are very helpful. I am going to ask SIG to post some additional pictures in the near future.

  • The top picture of Gordon's reproduction rod shows a great reproduction rod.
  • The middle picture appears to show a slot with one squared end and one rounded end. We need to explore this further. I also note what appear to be a small bump on the end of the shaft at the loop end. We need to verify this. I believe I can tell where the large or jag end is pinned to the shaft.
  • The rod in the bottom picture looks a lot like the pictures of the rod posted by ineverlistentofm, above. Perhaps, inever will comment when he responds to my first questions. I am also curious if ebay auction no. 1 is the same rod he posted above from the Connecticut police department.

Now everyone can tell why this has not been done before. It is very hard to get enough different types of long cleaning rods together for examination. Perhaps this is something we can compare at this years TATA and TCA shows. For now, pictures are our best source of information.

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I heard from 1921A. He should have some pictures of his rods in the near future. He also mentioned my earlier post regarding a dealer named "Roger" and told me that may be Roger Small of Brentwood, TN. Roger owned a company called Automatic Weaponry years ago. According to 1921A, Roger and Terry Williams were good friends so there may be a connection with both of them selling reproduction long cleaning rods. Perhaps this will jog someones memory on the Board.

 

I have a few pictures I am posting of what I believe to be a reproduction long cleaning rod. I believe it very similar if not identical to the one posted by aut-ord-co and possibly like the one in ebay auction #2. The history of this rod is unknown. If someone has one that is identical that they know to be a reproduction please let us know (and post some pictures if possible). While we may not be able to identify every original long cleaning rod variation, it would be great to be able to identify some of the reproduction rods sold years ago. I consider this a learning exercise. I am very open to someone being able to post a picture of this same rod with some absolute provenance that changes my/our thinking. In the end we each have to make our own decisions when offered a buying opportunity for a long Colt era rod. You will not find this information anywhere else.

 

To that end I am hoping some one will post a bunch of close up pictures of Gordon's rod, one still available in the market place. Please include close-up pictures of the loop end and the pin that holds the large end or jag onto the rod.

 

The below rod is 20.25" in length. I cannot find a pin that holds the large or jag end onto the shaft. It is possible this is a one piece rod or the large end is somehow glued or cemented on the shaft. It is possible the large or jag end of all original rods were pinned to the rod shaft as that is how things were made prior to World War II. It makes sense a cheaper method to make a modern cleaning rod would be to make it one piece or simply glue or cement the large end on the rod shaft. Of course, Gordon's reproduction rod is pinned, but Gordon went to great pains to duplicate an original rod as closely as possible (and did an excellent job). Here are the pictures:

 

JG Jag and slot.jpg JG Jag or large end.jpg

JG Jag or large very end.jpg JG loop end.jpg

JG slot rounded corners.jpg

 

 

 

 

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I'll have to check but I believe that I have a cleaning rod from Automatic Weaponry from Nashville TN.

I bought it with 2 other cleaning rods from a long time collector. They are all packed away waiting

to be sent to the new owner

Brian

Edited by bmarvin
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Brian,

All pictures would be very much appreciated. All other Board members with long cleaning rods please think about getting out your toys and taking a few pictures. We have enough information on the Board right now to make you feel pretty good about your rod...or make you start to wonder. We can resolve a lot of questions if everyone will jump in and help.

 

Greg Fox sent me some wonderful pictures to post. The pictures include a Terry Williams reproduction rod, four Michigan State Prison rods and a rod of unknown origin. First with the known Terry Williams reproduction rod:

 

T.Williams Loop .jpg Williams Jag & Slot marked #7.JPG

 

The picture on the left shows the Terry Williams loop. Note the rounded end on the loop.

The picture on the right shows the Terry Williams jag and slot. Note the rounded corners on the slot. It is also marked with a number 7. The reason for the numbering is unknown but I would not expect to find all T Williams reproduction rods numbered.

 

The next picture features the Terry Williams reproduction rod and and the one of unknown origin. The rod on the left is the Terry Williams rod; the rod on the right is of unknown origin:

 

Williams and Unknown.jpg

 

The last picture of the Williams rod included the one of unknown origin and the Michigan State Prison rod, each one marked for easy reference (Thanks Greg)

 

Long Rod Loops.jpg

 

SEE Post Below for more on 1921A's rod of unknown orgin.

 

It appears to me we have conclusively identified a reproduction long cleaning rod. The rods owned by Greg (1921A) and Bill (aut-ord-co) were purchased as reproduction rods many years ago and appear to match. One is known to be from Terry Williams, a known seller of reproduction long cleaning rods years ago. In addition, the rod from ebay auction No. 2 and the pictures of the rod of unknown origin I posted pictures of also seem to match Greg's and Bill's rod. The key to identifying this rod to me are the rounded end on the loop end and the lack of a pin holding the jag onto the rod. It appears to be a one piece rod. I welcome all comments. I especially welcome someone who has a rod like this with some known provenance that casts doubt on my comments. We are in this to learn.

 

Greg also supplied pictures of three cleaning rods from the Michigan State Prison, rods he obtained years ago, probably before any reproduction rods were on the market. Please note the jag can be removed from one of the Michigan State Prison rods.

SPSM (no bump).jpg SPSM Jag & Patch Slot.jpg

SPSM Jag (rivet).jpg SPSM Jags & Slots.jpg

SPSM Long Rods.jpg SPSM Rods O.A.L..jpg

 

What I noticed right off is the lack of a metal bump at the loop end that was found on some of the known originals posted above. I also noted how the slots are not absolutely square but are not absolutely rounded (like the Williams reproduction rod). It looks a lot like the middle rod posted by SIG, above, or the one he obtained with a police hard case years ago. I would like to know if SIG's police case rod has a metal bump at the end of the shaft. Better pictures of the slot on SIG's police hard case rod would also be helpful. One of the pictures clearly shows the rivet holding the jag on the loop shaft and how the rivet has been ground and polished into an irregular shape. I believe this is the sign of an original rod.

 

Without a picture of the jag or slot on Greg's rod of unknown origin, we really do not have enough information make a valid comparison with anything. Perhaps Greg has some additional pictures of this rod to share in the future. It is also impossible to tell if it has a metal bump at the end of the loop end.

 

Thanks again to everyone who has participated in this thread. Let's keep it alive with some new information and pictures.

Edited by TD.
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QUOTE

 

Seller says "not a reproduction" but it has the exact same features as a replica long rod produced in Tennessee in the 1980s. The end of the closed loop has a radius, known originals do not. The patch slot is round at both ends. Known originals are broach cut (squared ends). The profile of the jag tip is noticeably larger than the originals, most replicas were patterned from a brass military rod.

 

With original rods bringing 1K plus and reproductions from the 70's and 80's known to exist, it's buyer beware! The intent here is not to trash the seller but rather to educate the buyer. Looks like TD's "cleaning rod" thread was timely.

QUOTE

 

 

There are a fair amount of respectable OWNERS that claim to have original long cleaning rods with round patch slots unless they came both ways...For example refer to post 11

Edited by GUTTERRATT
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