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The Battle at Barrington


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Gents,

 

I am literally in the middle of packing for a residential move from Buffalo area to Danville, Kentucky with departure date this coming Tuesday. I have to run around today but I'll try to attempt to address some of these finding issues later on, on here, or tomorrow at the max. I am not going to have all the answers at this juncture. By Monday, my Internet service here will be cut off and I won't get service down there until I arrange for it and you know how that goes time wise. Best I'll be able to do maybe is take my Ipad to a "hot spot" coffee shop on Main St. down there and communicate from there.

 

The only file I am pulling documents from is the 62 Dillinger FOIA file. 62-29777

 

Off the top, and I don't know if anyone can find it, but transcripts of the Chase trial, the testimony of officers, Lab experts ....who found what, where, and the rest may be a viable option. If again, you can find it.

 

Back to you later....

Larry Wack

 

Larry, many thanks for taking the time while being on the move!

 

The FBI has helpfully published #62-29777, but unfortunately only up to #62-29777-1406 (and #62-29777-1026 to #62-29777-1090 are missing!). The rest of the file is not easily available. I have a couple of FOIA requests outstanding, but they're taking a lot of time (over a year already). From his book, Gordon Herigstad had indeed visited the FBI Firearms Collection. Lucky man, I contacted them but was referred to the Office of Public Affairs, which was not very helpful at all.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

Edited by HANS
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CJL had brought this up too, matching a bullet with CC's Nelson Thompson. My experience with these old artifacts is that it would take an Act of Congress to come up with these if they still existed. Some of the stuff I had in my collection came out of evidence files, but this was back in the late 1960s. Good thought you guys have tho. It's interesting to see the video of CC pulling the Thompson barrel to reveal the Nelson #.

David has it posted on the forum if you haven't seen it. Found Nelson's Thompson or something..

 

OCM

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For info, although I haven't found Officer Gallagher's full statement yet, attached is a blurb showing he recovered Nelson's Thompson. He also retrieved, according to another doc., 3 spent rifle shells.

 

Also attached is a 1938 listing of the evidence in the Cowley/Hollis murders. Note presence of the Winchester.

 

post-258934-0-46729000-1493548598_thumb.png

HolCow '38 Evidence.pdf

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Thanks Larry-

Looks like 3 gun stores recovered !!! This could be the Thompson ( Nelson ) that I mentioned was used as evidence in Mrs. Gillis' trial. Also, it's a very good possibility it was a Lebman acquired Thompson with the serial #s removed, certainly not Jack's tho.

Evidence of the big Monitor, magazine & shells, but again it escapes into oblivion .

Eyewitnesses to the battle say they saw the people( outlaws) pile into the other car ( 34 Hudson ) with a machine gun and all. Colt Chopper's ?

Good for Gordon to dig this stuff up. Joe Pinkston, who worked for the Pinkerton Agency, did the same somehow, but way back in the early 60s.

These guys didn't have Piehole Bourbon to back them up either !

Have a good trip Larry,

 

OCM

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For info, although I haven't found Officer Gallagher's full statement yet, attached is a blurb showing he recovered Nelson's Thompson. He also retrieved, according to another doc., 3 spent rifle shells.

 

Also attached is a 1938 listing of the evidence in the Cowley/Hollis murders. Note presence of the Winchester.

 

Thanks Larry, very good info.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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This could be the Thompson ( Nelson ) that I mentioned was used as evidence in Mrs. Gillis' trial. Also, it's a very good possibility it was a Lebman acquired Thompson with the serial #s removed, certainly not Jack's tho.

 

As it's #2179, it is not among the five he bought from Lebman in autumn of 1933. Which is weird, since he should have at least one left from those five (assuming one was lost by Carroll, one by Van Meter, and two at Little Bohemia). My pet theory is that this is one of the two he got in the summer of 1933 from Lebman for Bentz. They lost one of those to a runaway wheelman, but got away with one. Gillis may have held on to it and dug it out after he lost the other five.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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Note presence of the Winchester.

 

 

The odd thing about this is that Chase remembered a "bolt-action rifle", but the recovered Winchester Model 62 is a pump-action rifle. Perhaps he didn't count that since it was only a .22, and the bolt-action rifle disappeared together with the Colt Monitor and the Winchester Model 07.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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I seem to recall from a prior review that there were in fact a couple of weapons of the Nelson/Chase crowd never found, one of which very well could have been the Monitor Chase had. I do know, and docs support it, that Cowley's revolver was taken by them and not retrieved last I recall. The Canadian's thought they had found it up there in possession of some guy named Sparling, but I'm not certain how that played out. I don't have documents to support all of this immediately avail.

 

The first logical thought regarding discrepancies in reporting crime scene findings, whether it’s 1934 or 2017 is the mere fact that minute to minute, hour to hour, the findings are changing rapidly. Especially during chaotic shooting incidents and resulting chases exhibited at Barrington. During my tenure, I’ve experienced these discrepancies a thousand times over at crimes scenes and command post positions and I’m sure other lawmen here have also. It’s the nature of the beast. 3 guns found today, turns into 6 guns tomorrow! Eventually over the days, it all gets straightened out.

With the arrival of various jurisdictions to an already existing chaotic situation, the potential problems increase dramatically in multiple ways. Both then, and still today.

In this instance of Barrington in 1934, there are no cell phones, no FBI radios, no “real time” exchange of information and everyone at the scene is scrambling for pay phones to call HQ with updates etc. which is normal. Because there was the death of 2 FBI agents, and escaping killers, the pandemonium present was no doubt ratcheted beyond normal with everyone trying to get a handle on “what exactly happened, and how?”

larry wack
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This kinda throws us , at least me, back to the Little Bohemia battle and CC's #5487 that we know was one of the 5, but there is a lot of Ifs and unknowns still.

With the FBI files saying the numbers were removed on 2179, leads up to what HANS is saying , an Eddie Bentz/Nelson/Lebman Thompson, possibly/probably.

Unfortunately, Larry's FBI doc says the stuff might be disposed of or possibly used for the FBI display(s) which they had around the country.

Also, in there, the ammo would of probably been destroyed,

So, where the hell is the big Monitor ! Would of only fit in the rear seat of a 33-34 Ford. ( think Clyde Barrow and his BARs)

 

OCM

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I seem to recall from a prior review that there were in fact a couple of weapons of the Nelson/Chase crowd never found, one of which very well could have been the Monitor Chase had. I do know, and docs support it, that Cowley's revolver was taken by them and not retrieved last I recall. The Canadian's thought they had found it up there in possession of some guy named Sparling, but I'm not certain how that played out. I don't have documents to support all of this immediately avail.

 

The first logical thought regarding discrepancies in reporting crime scene findings, whether it’s 1934 or 2017 is the mere fact that minute to minute, hour to hour, the findings are changing rapidly. Especially during chaotic shooting incidents and resulting chases exhibited at Barrington. During my tenure, I’ve experienced these discrepancies a thousand times over at crimes scenes and command post positions and I’m sure other lawmen here have also. It’s the nature of the beast. 3 guns found today, turns into 6 guns tomorrow! Eventually over the days, it all gets straightened out.

With the arrival of various jurisdictions to an already existing chaotic situation, the potential problems increase dramatically in multiple ways.

 

 

Several eyewitnesses (cited both in newspaper articles and FBI files) mentioned that Chase and Gillis transferred a number of long arms from their own shot-up car to the commandeered FBI vehicle. Reports run as high as "four machine guns and four rifles", which is at odds with Chase remembering their arsenal in the car consisting of one submachine gun and three rifles ... We can safely assume that they had at least the Model 1921A (#2179) and the Winchester Model 62 that were seized as well as the Colt Monitor and the Winchester Model 07 which were their main weapons. They might have had additional submachine guns and rifles, perhaps including a bolt-action rifle. These were transferred and disappeared into Niles Centre, where they were cached.

 

Regarding the confusion over which weapons were found and when, we know that some were pilfered by eyewitnesses and others were seized first by local law enforcement, explaining why the FBI reports took their time to catch up with all of them. Nevertheless, they should all be in the later files (the ones that aren't published in the FBI Vault, annoyingly).

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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The Colt ACE, # 1406, found in the car, was in HS Lebman's gun shop inventory , June 1932 and was purchased from Wolf & Klar originally. I'll trace Colt records see if it pops up.

 

Yes it did , 1931 manufacture date.

 

I'd say that's a pretty firm Nelson/Lebman item

 

OCM

Edited by OCM
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The Colt ACE, # 1406, found in the car, was in HS Lebman's gun shop inventory , June 1932 and was purchased from Wolf & Klar originally. I'll trace Colt records see if it pops up.

 

Yes it did , 1931 manufacture date.

 

I'd say that's a pretty firm Nelson/Lebman item

 

 

I can't see the Colt Ace (#1406) on the Wolf & Klar list in #62-29777-1323. The only Colt Ace I see is #140x, with the last figure illegible. Looks like #1405 to me. It might be a 6, but the FBI actually traced the Colt Ace (#1406) to the Reno Sporting Goods Company, where Chase had bought it under alias on 17-OCT-1934 -- that's in #62-29777-5050. Chase even admitted to that. If the Ace on the W&K was, acually, #1406, then Lebman can't have sold it to Gillis in 1933, unless Gillis sold it in Reno and Chase bought it there (rather unlikely, if you ask me). In fact, the easiest way the FBI could have found out that it was sold to Chase by the Reno Sporting Goods Company is probably from Colt's, meaning it never came to either W&K or Lebman.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

Edited by HANS
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Don't know, looks like a 6 to me and Colt has it as a 1931 manufacture date. So if Colt made it in 1931 and it's with W&K, sold to Lebman in 1932 make sense to me. Not two years later.

I'll check 1405, see what that pulls up, might solve this.

 

1405 also comes up also as a Colt ACE 1931 . Probably a run of them.

Edited by OCM
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Don't know, looks like a 6 to me and Colt has it as a 1931 manufacture date. So if Colt made it in 1931 and it's with W&K, sold to Lebman in 1932 make sense to me. Not two years later.

I'll check 1405, see what that pulls up, might solve this.

 

1405 also comes up also as a Colt ACE 1931 . Probably a run of them.

 

The Colt manufacturing dates listed at www.colt.com/Customer-Services/Serial-Number-Lookup don't mean much. Not only are they not accurate despite being from Colt (a number of pistols confiscated from gangsters are listed as being shipped years after they had been seized), they also don't mean that they were shipped then. Again, the FBI seems to have traced the Ace (#1406) from Barrington to Chase to Reno, probably by going from Colt to Reno to Chase. Chase was IDed by the owner of the shop in Reno and admitted having bought it in Reno, just five weeks before the shootout.

 

Well, Colt might have shipped it to W&K in 1931, W&K shipped it to Lebman in 1932, Gillis bought it in 1933, then sold it in Reno in 1933 or 1934, the Reno shop couldn't move it, and then Chase bought it in Reno in 1934. But again, that strikes me as unlikely. Especially when the 6 is so difficult to make out and it might actually be a 5 or something else entirely ;)

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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I'm a retired Brewmaster in the U.S. HANS, love German bier. Made a lot of Helles, Marzens, Oktoberfest etc in my day, travels all over Deutschland.

I can now understand where you are coming from.

 

Prost.

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From multiple docs seen, my opinion is clearly it's a "6" and not a "5"

 

Larry, we're talking about the Colt Ace (#140x) that appears on page 2, line 33, of #62-29777-1323, the list of weapons delivered by Wolf & Klar to Lebman in 1932/1933. The last figure is illegible in that document, hence the confusion.

 

The Colt Ace (#1406) that they found in the car at Barrington is clearly #1406 and appears in numerous documents, as you say.

 

If the former really were #1406, it would have taken a very twisted route to Barrington, as mapped above. Stranger things have happened, of course, but since the last figure is so difficult to make out, I think it is better to be cautious.

 

cheers

 

HANS

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I'm a retired Brewmaster in the U.S. HANS, love German bier. Made a lot of Helles, Marzens, Oktoberfest etc in my day, travels all over Deutschland.

I can now understand where you are coming from.

 

Prost.

 

Haha, thanks, I'm a firm believer in the power of Coca-Cola, myself. Have a cold one!

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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  • 3 months later...

For some reason I've been reading a lot about this subject recently, and researching the files again.

In the vault, there is such a vast amount of information, searching for certain files is exhausting, There's so much there, and there is so much more that isn't there.

Between the Eye witness reports The Forensic Evidence;The changing Statements of the Accused Criminals that where trying to save their own asses, and not to mention the colorful newspaper articles. Information was changing all the time.

I feel that each individual has to make their opinion of the events that happened that day, and as to what firearms where actually used at what time during the confrontation, reports vastly vary.

I found one interview with Chase where he mentions Nelson was firing the Monitor at the beginning, and it was the machine gun that kept jamming, and he stated that he, Chase, gathered all guns that were laying on the ground during their escape.

Officer Gallahger supposedly secured two Thompson's, (Nelsons and the Agents) but does not mention other firearms, He also rides to the hospital with one of the agents.


Eyewitness truck driver finds a rifle under the car seat.


Inventory lists shows machine gun and three rifles. The only consistent firearm mentioned is the Colt Ace, They talk about the serial number, where and when it was purchased and by who.


Why wouldn't they go into that detail regarding Thompson #2179 like they do with the Little Bohemia guns? One file shown by Larry states the Thompson had the serial number erased; With the LB guns they go into such detail about acid raising the numbers.

Edited by Colt Chopper
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At least we know from ballistics, one of the rifles was a Winchester 351. My guess here ( Helmer's too ) the Monitor came from Jack Perkins out of New York. If the Thompson did have numbers removed, more then likely a Lebman gun, possibly the Winchesters too, that were probably unmodified. Your Thompson ?????????

 

Yes it's always been confusing, but gets clearer with this historical research you, Larry, Hans and others are doing on the subject, mainly you for obvious reasons.

 

The Little Bohemia thing was a pretty major battle with the likes of Dillinger and his gang involved. Then a whole bunch of FBI guys and locals shooting the hell out of things, the almighty press that shows up and the locals raising hell probably cause a big research investigation. Killing of a couple locals didn't help either. Then they recover cars & guns and molls and on & on.

 

Only way to sort this out is a HG Wells time machine.

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I picked up what may be my last Colt TSMG on the 18th in Wausau WI.

The police captain stated that the Little Bohemia site was around 25 miles from Wausau.

He also stated that's why they had purchased both of their Colt Thompsons in 1934, to

deal with the riff raff :-)

It was an original gun with all the correct internals, a gen. 3 L drum and 9 Colt era XX mags.

It even had a Colt era oil container in the butt stock.

Darryl

Edited by darrylta
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I picked up what may be my last Colt TSMG on the 18th in Wausau WI.

The police captain stated that the Little Bohemia site was around 25 miles from Wausau.

He also stated that's why they had purchased both of their Colt Thompsons in 1934, to

deal with the riff raff :-)

It was an original gun with all the correct internals, a gen. 3 L drum and 9 Colt era XX mags.

It even had a Colt era oil container in the butt stock.

Darryl

Congrats, sounds very interesting, need to post some pics !

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CC,

These are a couple of the PD"s photos I have.

I only have the one photo, the others are to big to post.

Darryl

 

 

 

7022-15png_resized.png

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