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Thompson Parts, Drums, Mags and Web Gear Up For Auction


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Thank you for the link - There's some fun stuff there.

 

Side-note:

 

Is that the "Mexican" Johnson LMG/Semi that has been derailed as a fake (as in a rifle upper one an LMG lower and "modern" engraving) on several collector sites by several collectors?

 

I want to find a semi-M1941-LMG lookalike for the movie armory - less than $10K seems OK - I couldn't care less about fake engraving if it's a put together anyway.

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There's this "interesting" TSMG as well

https://poulinantiques.hibid.com/lot/77578932/auto-ordnance-1928-a1-thompson-smg-?ipp=100

I'd love to know the story behind the removed and replaced S/N

 

Also comes with a fair amount of web gear, mags and an AOC drum

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There's this "interesting" TSMG as well

https://poulinantiques.hibid.com/lot/77578932/auto-ordnance-1928-a1-thompson-smg-?ipp=100

I'd love to know the story behind the removed and replaced S/N

 

Also comes with a fair amount of web gear, mags and an AOC drum

Amen to that. I never heard of any firearm that has an IRS label/ser. # attached but maybe I didn't look hard enough. Heck, anybody could put that on there, right? If I'm wrong about this, please correct me.

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Pre-amnesty and GCA'68 there was no reason or problem to fake or add a serial number on an NFA MG registration since any number would do. So, removing a serial number really didn't mean anything at all nor did it mean anything that a firearm didn't have a serial number since they were not legally required. Of course, under NFA rules an MG had to have a number but it didn't matter what it was and adding one didn't mean that the MG was being stealthily registered to sneak it into the registry.

MGs in the NFRTR are registered under numbers that were model, or manufacturer's codes, or any number that was available as an ID. An interesting example in my experience was a German MG15. These guns have a prominent large stamped number on the top of the receiver that is a factory code number of some sort and is the same on every gun. I had an MG15 registered under that number which then made every MG15 in the registry registered to me! I assume that it was the only MG in the NFRTR actually registered using that number instead of the actual serial number since ATF never called about a transfer of another MG15 being held up for that number because there were two registrants with the same numbered gun. I did have that problem years later and had to dance with ATF for quite a while before the music stopped on that one.

Anyway IRS numbers on MGs show up quite a bit and are perfectly legitimate and were, at the time, Treasury's helpful way of assisting new registrations of MGs. FWIW

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Interesting to try and figure out which guns the IRS decided to keep alive and which ones to destroy.

So, in the case of an obliterated serial # (heavens, say it isn't so!), did the bad guys that did alleged obliterating know that the same serial number is on the bottom rear of the Thompson receiver too and get rid of that one too? Just askin'. Interesting thread, thanks for bringing up different scenarios and explanations.

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Definitely an interesting Savage Arms Model of 1928A1 Thompson. I would guess it was stolen from the US military many years ago. Perhaps, a vet bring back. The original serial number was probably removed to prevent someone tracing it back to a particular military inventory list. Another guess would be a 1968 Amnesty registration. If true, that would be when an IRS employee stamped the IRS number on the receiver so it could be registered. If the frame serial number was a mismatch, it may still be intact. A question I would ask of the auction house if seriously interested. The assembly number is most likely unmolested so the true serial number can be found by removing the barrel. Not that it really matters. At the right price, this could be a great shooter grade Thompson. Much better than a West Hurley! A Freedom of Information Act would answer several questions.

 

IRS 8498A.jpg

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I have an amnesty registered Sten Mk II that came with a full copy of the amnesty registration of the original registrant.

That number does not start with IRS, but I was told it was a very early registration in Nov of '68 and the vet who brought it back from WWII wanted to use birthdays of his kids or something such as that, and the Gov. didn't mind. The number was stamped under the cover in front of the trigger.

I did a FOIA to confirm that and got back the usual blacked out registration that was the same as the copy that came with the gun.

It's the only amnesty gun I've ever encountered without an "IRS" identifier.

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Definitely an interesting Savage Arms Model of 1928A1 Thompson. I would guess it was stolen from the US military many years ago. Perhaps, a vet bring back. The original serial number was probably removed to prevent someone tracing it back to a particular military inventory list. Another guess would be a 1968 Amnesty registration. If true, that would be when an IRS employee stamped the IRS number on the receiver so it could be registered. If the frame serial number was a mismatch, it may still be intact. A question I would ask of the auction house if seriously interested. The assembly number is most likely unmolested so the true serial number can be found by removing the barrel. Not that it really matters. At the right price, this could be a great shooter grade Thompson. Much better than a West Hurley! A Freedom of Information Act would answer several questions.

 

attachicon.gif IRS 8498A.jpg

 

The IRS did not stamp the numbers, it was up to the registrant to do it however they saw fit. As I understand it you could file the amnesty registration and they would assign a number randomly to the whatever gun you wanted to register with brief descriptions required on forms such as caliber, length, etc. I base this on several guns I have with IRS numbers with almost no information about the gun itself other than caliber and length and no model description as well as incorrect country in the manufacturers area. Other guns even without amnesty registration such as model MKI, could be a bren, or portative, you really don't know for sure?

The Thompson was no doubt, not "officially" transferred out of the previous owners possession, but was effectively "re-registered" during the amnesty. Lots of guns ended up this way.

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johnsonlmg41,
I have to respectfully disagree about the IRS not physically stamping the numbers on firearms without a serial number, machine guns included. TMAN, a forum member and now retired ATF Special Agent posted long ago that he found an old IRS stamping kit at his office when he was an active field agent. The then Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Division (ATFD) split off from the IRS in 1972 and became its own Bureau in the US Treasury Department. All IRS assets that were assigned to ATFD at the IRS were moved to this new Bureau - BATF. I remember all the chairs (very nice chairs by the way) at the main ATF conference room in North Houston were still tagged with IRS metal property tags.

Having collected pictures of firearms that were stamped with the IRS serial numbers I do see some similarities in the applied numbers. That said, I would guess there were many of stamping kits around the country and not all were from the same vendor. The question then becomes who at the IRS would have applied these numbers. Just guessing, I would suggest one of the Special Agents or a higher graded technical specialists dealing with firearms would do the honors. As we know, the serial number of all Class 3 firearms is critical for registration and transfer purposes. I don't think the IRS would allow the firearm owner to apply the number, especially on a NFA registered machine gun. Perhaps other forum members with personal knowledge of this long ago process can add to the discussion. I would like to know more about it.

As far as the Thompson gun that started this conversation, I don't know that it was Amnesty registered. However, a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) would certainly show when it was born on the Registry.

Edited by TD.
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Good memory, TD! That stamp kit was at the San Antonio Field Office. After ATF became a separate bureau the stamping was changed. The new numbers started with ATF and was followed with a 5 digit number that corresponded with the District Office that issued it. Houston District number would have been - ATF53100***. The stars signify the numeric sequence so each numbered firearm would not duplicate. In the mid ‘90’s, the Districts were changed to Divisions and the numbers again changed. Houston Division issued numbers looked like this - ATF745400***. Another change a couple of years after that looked like - ATF782000***. I don’t remember the exact dates of the changes. Hope this helps.

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TD,
while I have no doubt they may have stamped guns, I seriously doubt it was the norm, I suspect they offered to do it, but it certainly was not a requirement. I just physically looked at 2 guns with 4 digit IRS numbers. One has a suffix.....I have no idea what that could be about other than perhaps that number got assigned to something else and the suffix letter made it different? I've seen several others and never seen any with a number as long as 8 digits on anything that's been through here? The ones I have are electro penciled which was very common pre-86. Both of the guns were amnesty registered.

Machine guns were spread across the country, field offices were not. I'm sure if you lived in a big city you could drive down there and get it marked but many folks lived far away from field offices. During the short amnesty it was not about how well the number was applied, but the fact that you were assigned one before the cutoff date and who or how wasn't a big deal. An old timer I bought a gun from told me they never registered anything as they were out in very rural areas and no one cared. $200 was more than they paid for the guns. Course in 68 that changed and he filed a bunch of paperwork, not because he was a big fan of registration, but because it was free. That's the only reason most of this stuff ever got registered, no one was paying 200 back in the day and the only way to get compliance was to offer it for free.

 

Interesting discussion!

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I don't know the reason for the letter suffix at the end of the IRS serial numbers. I assumed it had something to do with the different IRS Districts around the country. I do know the respective IRS District Directors over the years were very powerful executives at the IRS, sometimes implementing their own District wide rules. Of course, Districts can change to Divisions and Divisions can change to Regions altering the power structure during the 1934 to 1968 time frame for machine guns. The letter suffix's definitely had some meaning, at least at one point in time.

 

I have never seen an electro pencil applied IRS serial number. It makes sense though as I would hate to hand stamp a tube gun. If you have a picture of electro pencil markings, please post. Regarding the rural counties, there are many smaller 1 or 2 plus agent offices outside of the main cities. In addition, agents from the major cites are often in the rural counties. You go where the investigations lead. It would be easy enough to make an appointment with someone at the IRS for them to come by and stamp your firearm. I have the feeling the IRS was pretty strict about the application of these IRS numbers, at least for Class 3 weapons.

 

Freedom of Information Act information is invaluable. While redacted, it does provide meaningful background information on all registered firearms

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I have been scratching my head for years trying to figure this out. My WW II Guide Lamp M3 grease gun has an IRS 4 digit serial number on it. I can see no evidence what so ever that any previous number was ever on it nor any signs of one being ground off. The guns finish is original, I know what an original finish on these guns look like. My FOI request came back telling me very little. The earliest page was a 1980 heavily redacted Form 3 which didn't reveal anything. Is it possible that this gun was issued without a serial number on it way back when? Is this unusual to see?

 

MH

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Interesting to try and figure out which guns the IRS decided to keep alive and which ones to destroy.

So, in the case of an obliterated serial # (heavens, say it isn't so!), did the bad guys that did alleged obliterating know that the same serial number is on the bottom rear of the Thompson receiver too and get rid of that one too? Just askin'. Interesting thread, thanks for bringing up different scenarios and explanations.

Pre-'68 Amnesty ANYONE could register an MG, no questions asked and it was free. If there was no number that was clearly the serial number, a number could be made up and applied for registration purposes. While most manufacturers serialized their firearms many did not and serial numbers were not required until passage og the GCA'68. Military small arms are almost universally serialized going way back. An MG without a serial, missing for some reason, did not mean anything because there was no system to trace the serial number to a specific owner. Thus, the gun was not contraband or illegal and a number could be assigned and applied to comply with NFA requirements for registration in the case of MGs. FWIW

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I registered 18 NFA items in Raleigh NC on November 15, 1968 Included was a U.S. military Hi Standard OSS Silenced .22 HD Military pistol. I waited until the middle of November to make sure it wasn't some kind of scam to confiscate the guns. When I got to the ATF office in Raleigh, there was one guy ahead of me in line. He was an old farmer in bib overalls and carried a briefcase. When he opened it he had a single shot bolt action .22 rifle cut down to a pistol size. The agent filled out the paper work and then asked him "why do you have this?" The farmer replied "I use it with birdshot to kill rats in my barn." I was told that each ATF office had been assigned a block of 4-digit serial numbers preceded by IRS. And has best I remember, the agent registering the farmer's .22 placed the gun on his desk and hand stamped the IRS number on the receiver.

 

When it was my turn I told the agent I was inquiring about the amnesty and he said if I had one to bring it in and they would register it for me. I hesitantly advised I had 18 items including a .50 caliber ma deuce M2 Browning mg and I didn't really want to bring it into downtown Raleigh ( with what was going on in the 1960's) After some discussion he advised I could take the amnesty registration forms back home and fill them in and mail to ATF. After mailing the forms, they started coming back "approved" except for the one on the silenced Hi Standard. They returned it for "more information" and wanted to know what the serial number of the silencer was. I wrote back and told them the silencer was an integral part of the barrel which was permanently attached to the frame. And I had used the serial number of the Hi Standard pistol. They returned it as "approved." I've often wondered if this was the only silenced Hi Standard pistol in the registry that didn't have a serial number on the silencer...

 

Side note. Thirty days after the amnesty I acquired an FG42 (not MG42). The mail clerk in the insurance company where I worked as an adjuster used to buy cheap military rifles and sporterize for hunting. And there was a farmer in Wake County who had two Jap military rifles and this "funny looking weird automatic gun." The farmer wouldn't sell him just the two Jap rifles and the mail clerk didn't want the "funny looking" German gun. He said if I paid him $60 I could have the German gun. Which I did. The FG42 had no box magazine but was otherwise complete with bi[od, bayonet, and sling. In the Shotgun News which we all subscribed to back in the day, I found an original FG42 magazine for $75.

 

Later when I realized there was no way make the FG42 legit, it went to a private collector. Imagine my surprise when I ran into him years later and was told he had cut off the back end of the tubular receiver that was inside the butt stock. And had a machinist weld an extension on the tube part of the receiver and he filed a Form-1 to manufacture a mg...

 

Lastly, one of the other items I registered was a TRW M-14 select fire rifle. After returning to Florida I later advertised the M14 in the Shotgun News for sale. At that time, 1974,there had not been any M1A semi-auto M14 lookalikes so it was a really scarce gun. Not long after the SGN ad came out, I got a call from the Washington BATF office (which routinely read the Shot Gun News ) inquiring about how many of these M14's I had because they didn't think these were in private hands. I advised that it was an amnesty-registered gun. A year later at my insurance agency I got a call from ATF agent Al Posey out of the Tampa office that he wanted to come talk to me about. ( I had met Posey earlier at a local gun show.) When he got to my office he advised that he had a letter from the Washington ATF office advising he was supposed to come pick up the M14. After telling him the amnesty had no penalties or fines or criminal charges, he advised that during the previous year after Washington had called me the "BATF had researched the matter" and decided that the government could file civil action to "Recover stolen government property" but if I voluntarily agreed to surrender the gun, there would be no charges, fines, etc. I told him that I had transferred it 6 months earlier to another Class 3 dealer. He asked for copies of the approved transfer form and left.

A few months later I saw the guy to whom I had sold the M14 and asked him what happened to it. He said they had wanted him to voluntarily surrender it to BATF. When I asked him what he did, he said he told them to "stick it up their A--" And that since he was an atty he could fight them in court for as long as they wanted to spend thousands and of dollars to recover a $400-cost rifle for the government. He never heard from them again.

 

It was in fact this same atty to whom I sold the above-mentioned FG42....

 

I've seen a lot of changes over the last 56 years since I took out my first FFL license when I turned 21 in 1964. In those days the FFL license was $1.00 per year and they had not come out with the 4473 forms. I had my license at my mother's house in Florida but while I was in college I was having guns drop-shipped to my married student housing apartment in Chapel; Hill, NC Then I took out my SOT license in October of 1971 Before they used FIE numbers for NFA dealers they were using a 4-digit dealer number that began with the number "1000" My dealer number in 1971 was "1070" so I assume I was the 70th SOT NFA dealer in the U.S. Seems like I should get some kind of "frequent flier miles" or break on my taxes or something. Just sayin....

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Black River Militaria CII,

I will certainly state outright that you have been involved in the machine gun community a lot longer than I and have much more knowledge. That said, I don't believe there could be any machine guns registered by the IRS without serial numbers after the initial 1934 registration push to have all machine guns and other devices cited in the 1934 National Firearms Act registered. I do agree that there are machine guns on what we call the Registry without serial numbers. I believe these few would be from the initial registration period when it appeared the IRS was accepting all registration forms as is. Since the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR) is based on a specific serial number, I believe that requirement would be strictly mandated as the registration process evolved. Again, I believe anything was allowed on the early registrations but as the NFRTR evolved, I do not believe a NFA weapon could be entered into this system and more importantly approved, without a serial number. Hence, the IRS stamping kits.

 

Mike Hammer,

If your World War II M3 grease gun is an unrestricted (Form 4) registered machine gun, there would have to be an earlier registration document(s). Whether or not the earlier registration form(s) can be found by ATF Disclosure Division is another matter. I would contact the liaison people at the ATF Disclosure Division and ask them what is the earliest registration date and form as found on the NRFTR computer system Weapon History Report. Have your FOIA case number at hand so they will know this is a follow up inquiry. If this inquiry fails to produce any information, contact me via PM and I will help you draft another FOIA request asking specifically for this computer documentation.

 

A great discussion!

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I registered 18 NFA items in Raleigh NC on November 15, 1968 Included was a U.S. military Hi Standard OSS Silenced .22 HD Military pistol. I waited until the middle of November to make sure it wasn't some kind of scam to confiscate the guns. When I got to the ATF office in Raleigh, there was one guy ahead of me in line. He was an old farmer in bib overalls and carried a briefcase. When he opened it he had a single shot bolt action .22 rifle cut down to a pistol size. The agent filled out the paper work and then asked him "why do you have this?" The farmer replied "I use it with birdshot to kill rats in my barn." I was told that each ATF office had been assigned a block of 4-digit serial numbers preceded by IRS. And has best I remember, the agent registering the farmer's .22 placed the gun on his desk and hand stamped the IRS number on the receiver.

 

When it was my turn I told the agent I was inquiring about the amnesty and he said if I had one to bring it in and they would register it for me. I hesitantly advised I had 18 items including a .50 caliber ma deuce M2 Browning mg and I didn't really want to bring it into downtown Raleigh ( with what was going on in the 1960's) After some discussion he advised I could take the amnesty registration forms back home and fill them in and mail to ATF. After mailing the forms, they started coming back "approved" except for the one on the silenced Hi Standard. They returned it for "more information" and wanted to know what the serial number of the silencer was. I wrote back and told them the silencer was an integral part of the barrel which was permanently attached to the frame. And I had used the serial number of the Hi Standard pistol. They returned it as "approved." I've often wondered if this was the only silenced Hi Standard pistol in the registry that didn't have a serial number on the silencer...

 

Side note. Thirty days after the amnesty I acquired an FG42 (not MG42). The mail clerk in the insurance company where I worked as an adjuster used to buy cheap military rifles and sporterize for hunting. And there was a farmer in Wake County who had two Jap military rifles and this "funny looking weird automatic gun." The farmer wouldn't sell him just the two Jap rifles and the mail clerk didn't want the "funny looking" German gun. He said if I paid him $60 I could have the German gun. Which I did. The FG42 had no box magazine but was otherwise complete with bi[od, bayonet, and sling. In the Shotgun News which we all subscribed to back in the day, I found an original FG42 magazine for $75.

 

Later when I realized there was no way make the FG42 legit, it went to a private collector. Imagine my surprise when I ran into him years later and was told he had cut off the back end of the tubular receiver that was inside the butt stock. And had a machinist weld an extension on the tube part of the receiver and he filed a Form-1 to manufacture a mg...

 

Lastly, one of the other items I registered was a TRW M-14 select fire rifle. After returning to Florida I later advertised the M14 in the Shotgun News for sale. At that time, 1974,there had not been any M1A semi-auto M14 lookalikes so it was a really scarce gun. Not long after the SGN ad came out, I got a call from the Washington BATF office (which routinely read the Shot Gun News ) inquiring about how many of these M14's I had because they didn't think these were in private hands. I advised that it was an amnesty-registered gun. A year later at my insurance agency I got a call from ATF agent Al Posey out of the Tampa office that he wanted to come talk to me about. ( I had met Posey earlier at a local gun show.) When he got to my office he advised that he had a letter from the Washington ATF office advising he was supposed to come pick up the M14. After telling him the amnesty had no penalties or fines or criminal charges, he advised that during the previous year after Washington had called me the "BATF had researched the matter" and decided that the government could file civil action to "Recover stolen government property" but if I voluntarily agreed to surrender the gun, there would be no charges, fines, etc. I told him that I had transferred it 6 months earlier to another Class 3 dealer. He asked for copies of the approved transfer form and left.

A few months later I saw the guy to whom I had sold the M14 and asked him what happened to it. He said they had wanted him to voluntarily surrender it to BATF. When I asked him what he did, he said he told them to "stick it up their A--" And that since he was an atty he could fight them in court for as long as they wanted to spend thousands and of dollars to recover a $400-cost rifle for the government. He never heard from them again.

 

It was in fact this same atty to whom I sold the above-mentioned FG42....

 

I've seen a lot of changes over the last 56 years since I took out my first FFL license when I turned 21 in 1964. In those days the FFL license was $1.00 per year and they had not come out with the 4473 forms. I had my license at my mother's house in Florida but while I was in college I was having guns drop-shipped to my married student housing apartment in Chapel; Hill, NC Then I took out my SOT license in October of 1971 Before they used FIE numbers for NFA dealers they were using a 4-digit dealer number that began with the number "1000" My dealer number in 1971 was "1070" so I assume I was the 70th SOT NFA dealer in the U.S. Seems like I should get some kind of "frequent flier miles" or break on my taxes or something. Just sayin....

Love this post! Thank you for posting. Probably one of the most informative and interesting this so far on the topic. Especially liked how your friend told the govt to pound sand! An amnesty is just that, an amnesty.....no questions asked!

 

Maybe one day you can tell us on how you came by acquiring the M2!

Edited by halftrack
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