Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 3 votes

New Guy with Early British Savage


  • Please log in to reply
67 replies to this topic

#21 bug

bug

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 1626 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SE PA
  • Interests:Hunting, fishing, shooting, reloading, metalworking, woodworking, photography.

Posted 06 December 2018 - 12:07 PM

i believe an original early S1928 would have an unmarked barrel.....mine has been replaced at least 2x's, so i have a ww2 S marked barrel on mine...a cutts v2 is what should be on your gun....ive searched for a spare for 2.5 years and have yet to see one ever come up....

 

making your gun correct or as correct as possible will be a quest...long term...i grabbed the selectors a few months ago from a forum member, ive got all 3 pieces of wood off forum members over a 2 year period..these things do come up...the stock is the easiest...that you could find in a month or 2...the selectors? very hard....the no hole mag release? ive never found one....

 

does your gun have a milled ejector? looks like it does

 

with the current 6-12 month gunsmith wait i would use that time to find as many correct parts as you can...the wood can always be swapped out as you find correct parts, but it would be nice to get the rest of it correct when its refinished...

 

have you tried steel wool and oil to clean the finish? if its minor surface rust you may be surprised how clean it comes out...ive used this in the past in minor rust and it works flawless...on a shiny blued gun you wont damage the finish...on many parkerized guns it wont either...but test it as some park guns and in this case dulite it may do as much damage as good.....i had a brown luger that turned to a beautiful blue when done and came out flawless.....same with a vis radom......the wool removed the rust but not the bluing....

 

your gun may clean up good enough to accept as is...

 

dont toss the barrel..keep it...if the barrel line lines up it could be original!!....maybe someone can fix the chamber and save the barrel? if original it would be worth it...ive got a mp40 spare barrel that someone redid the throat, so a skilled smith can do miracles

 

Not sure what you mean by unmarked barrel. I believe it would be S marked and no P if Commercial.


  • 0

#22 bug

bug

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 1626 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SE PA
  • Interests:Hunting, fishing, shooting, reloading, metalworking, woodworking, photography.

Posted 06 December 2018 - 12:14 PM

Here are some photos of a near perfect 1940 Savage gun. It was up for sale a few years ago and I grabbed the pics to drool over. It is what your gun would have looked like when it arrived in the UK. 

 

Congrats on the gun. It is very cool.

 

Note the 12 pat dates on the 21K gun vs 13 pa t#s on the 27K. A fine looking specimen non the less. Is there a close up pic of the barrel markings on it?


  • 0

#23 Adg105200

Adg105200

    RKI Member

  • Board Donor
  • 822 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eastern USA
  • Interests:Ww2, Thompsons & many other guns, hunting, fishing, tools, woodworking

Posted 06 December 2018 - 12:55 PM

Welcome to the board and congrats on the gun! Glad you were able to obtain/save it! Great pictures, keep em coming. I as well as others would also (as mentioned) like to see some pics of the trigger frame. Please keep us posted on the restoration.

When it comes to sourcing parts, this is the place to ask! As you have already learned, there are many knowledgeable people here who are willing to help. Good luck!

Andrew
  • 0

#24 huggytree

huggytree

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 2698 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:WI
  • Interests:Fast cars, Guns, Work

Posted 06 December 2018 - 10:39 PM



i believe an original early S1928 would have an unmarked barrel.....mine has been replaced at least 2x's, so i have a ww2 S marked barrel on mine...a cutts v2 is what should be on your gun....ive searched for a spare for 2.5 years and have yet to see one ever come up....
 
making your gun correct or as correct as possible will be a quest...long term...i grabbed the selectors a few months ago from a forum member, ive got all 3 pieces of wood off forum members over a 2 year period..these things do come up...the stock is the easiest...that you could find in a month or 2...the selectors? very hard....the no hole mag release? ive never found one....
 
does your gun have a milled ejector? looks like it does
 
with the current 6-12 month gunsmith wait i would use that time to find as many correct parts as you can...the wood can always be swapped out as you find correct parts, but it would be nice to get the rest of it correct when its refinished...
 
have you tried steel wool and oil to clean the finish? if its minor surface rust you may be surprised how clean it comes out...ive used this in the past in minor rust and it works flawless...on a shiny blued gun you wont damage the finish...on many parkerized guns it wont either...but test it as some park guns and in this case dulite it may do as much damage as good.....i had a brown luger that turned to a beautiful blue when done and came out flawless.....same with a vis radom......the wool removed the rust but not the bluing....
 
your gun may clean up good enough to accept as is...
 
dont toss the barrel..keep it...if the barrel line lines up it could be original!!....maybe someone can fix the chamber and save the barrel? if original it would be worth it...ive got a mp40 spare barrel that someone redid the throat, so a skilled smith can do miracles

 
Not sure what you mean by unmarked barrel. I believe it would be S marked and no P if Commercial.

Those with orignal version 1 s1928s speak out?

One was posted all original 1 year + ago with a unmarked barrel. Just the barrel line. If the barrel is marked S then whats the difference in barrels between a ww2 S barrel and a early s1928 barrel ???

Edited by huggytree, 06 December 2018 - 10:42 PM.

  • 0

#25 bug

bug

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 1626 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SE PA
  • Interests:Hunting, fishing, shooting, reloading, metalworking, woodworking, photography.

Posted 06 December 2018 - 10:46 PM

The P


  • 0

#26 kp31

kp31

    New Member

  • Regular Group
  • 6 posts

Posted 07 December 2018 - 12:20 PM

Thanks again for all the info everyone. Greatly appreciated. 


I've looked over the barrel where it attaches to the receiver - there are no marks and the bottom is destroyed with the two pins.  Am I correct that the notch in front of Brit proofs (pictured in my original post) on the right side of the receiver near the barrel was used as a witness mark for barrel? There are no such notches on the barrel itself. 

 

In any case, it sounds like consensus is that I need an S marked barrel with a type 2 Cutts and this will be very hard to find. If anyone has one, please let me know.  It's near Christmas - maybe a miracle will happen?  :happy:

 

I've attached the requested picture of the bottom of the frame where the serial has been scrubbed and re-blued.

 

 

Attached File  IMG_0457.JPG   130.67K   41 downloads


Edited by kp31, 07 December 2018 - 12:21 PM.

  • 0

#27 R67

R67

    RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 304 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pacific NW, USA
  • Interests:WWII US Uniforms and Equipment, College girls, and Thompsons of course....

Posted 08 December 2018 - 12:32 AM

This forum is awesome for sourcing parts. Usually some guy will post a For Sale thread and have a bunch of parts for sale. They usually sell within a few hours of the posting. Maybe post a wanted thread so the folks who do read this thread will see the title and think of you before they post. Other than that I would wait and be patient for the right parts to come. 

 

If it does not pop up for sale here after a while, someone may post an example currently for sale elsewhere. The community is really cool about pointing people to good parts for sale around the web. Good luck this is a cool project. 


  • 0

#28 Devious6

Devious6

    Regular Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 221 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dalton, PA

Posted 08 December 2018 - 05:49 AM

Welcome to the forum!!!


  • 0

#29 huggytree

huggytree

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 2698 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:WI
  • Interests:Fast cars, Guns, Work

Posted 08 December 2018 - 09:38 AM

http://www.machinegu...rel#entry178071

 

heres the thread i was talking about....im just mixed up....no barrel line and a S on a fin...look close at your fins


  • 0

#30 TD.

TD.

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 3312 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 December 2018 - 10:59 AM

kp31,

Thanks for posting the picture of the frame.

 

I believe a Freedom of Information request would provide you some valuable insight as to the provenance of your early Savage. Contact me via PM and I will be glad to assist. It is a relatively easy and straight forward process.

 

-------------------------------

 

I do not refer to the part of a finned Thompson barrel that touches or tightens up against the receiver as a fin. I refer to this part of the barrel as the barrel collar. I don't know which is correct, fin or collar, if either.

 

While my study of the early Savage Thompson is far from complete, I have noted many of the earliest Savage barrels do not have an index line on the barrel collar that mates with the index line on the right side of the receiver. That said, it is very common to find an "S" mark on the left or opposite side of the barrel collar. I do not have definitive serial number ranges for this observation. However, it appears to me that Savage Thompsons in the 21,000 serial number range had both the "S" mark and index line on opposite sides of  the barrel collar. And some barrels have a "P" or proof marking on the top of the barrel collar.  

 

The reason for the "S" marking on the barrel collar on the early Savage guns is obvious. The first contract between Auto-Ordnance (AOC) and Savage Arms was for 10,000 Model of 1928 Thompson guns. At the time of execution, December 1939, Colt's guns were still being sold by AOC. No one at Savage Arms knew if this first contract would be the only contract, therefore it appeared Savage Arms did not subcontract any of the manufacturing work other than the compensator and rear sight to other companies. Later in 1940 when sales or orders increased, mainly from the British MoS, additional contracts between AOC and Savage Arms were executed and subcontractors were hired. The first subcontractor was most likely the sister company to Savage Arms, Stevens Arms. 


  • 0

#31 Mk VII

Mk VII

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 340 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England

Posted 08 December 2018 - 01:14 PM

A gun with the index mark on the bbl. at 12:00

 

standard.jpg


  • 0

#32 Mk VII

Mk VII

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 340 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England

Posted 08 December 2018 - 01:16 PM

And an index mark on the receiver r/h side

 

standard.jpg


  • 0

#33 Mk VII

Mk VII

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 340 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England

Posted 08 December 2018 - 01:19 PM

And a square S on the l/h side of the bbl.  This is no. S-120859

 

standard.jpg


  • 0

#34 Mk VII

Mk VII

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 340 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England

Posted 08 December 2018 - 01:25 PM

This much later gun (No. S-214656) exhibits the P mark and prick-punch marks. 

 

large.jpg


  • 1

#35 Jack Wright

Jack Wright

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 44 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:McLean, VA

Posted 08 December 2018 - 02:57 PM

I own British Thompson S-62648, New York address. The index mark on the right side of the receiver lines up
perfectly with the index mark on the barrel, so I assume the barrel is original. The top of the barrel has the P mark,
which appears to have been punched in (presumably after the barrel was installed?). On the left side of the barrel
is the square S (Stevens) mark. This mark is lying on its side, parallel with the barrel. I recall reading that the
Stevens mark occurs at the three o’clock rather than at the nine o’clock position on some guns. Is this correct?
Comments please...
  • 0

#36 wv1928

wv1928

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 231 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Virginia -Indiana
  • Interests:Thompson's and all other guns especially full auto's.

Posted 08 December 2018 - 06:42 PM

Welcome to the board.


  • 0

#37 AlanDavid

AlanDavid

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 202 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney Australia
  • Interests:British military secondary issue small arms.

Posted 08 December 2018 - 11:41 PM

kp31

 

These early British contract Savage made guns are especially intere4ting. Your gun has the Enfield inspection mark at the end of the frame where the barrel screws in. I cant quite see from the photographs but does it also have the so called Woolwich mark of a W inside a crown?

 

Regards

 

AlanD

Sydney


  • 0

#38 TD.

TD.

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 3312 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 09 December 2018 - 11:03 AM

Mk VII,

Great example of the British middle sight!

 

Jack Wright,

A Stevens Arms barrel on S-62648 would be normal. I have seen the location of the manufacturer markings at different places on the barrel collar. Nothing unusual there. No reason to suspect the barrel is not original based on your post. 

 

AlanDavid,

Great question! I doubt kp31's S-21146 has the Woolwich mark. But I bet Jack Wright's S-62648 has the mark. Perhaps Jack can post some pictures.

 

kp31,

Two of the foremost experts on early Savage Thompson guns just posted on this thread, Mk VII and AlanDavid. I have learned a lot over the years from both of them.  

 

An example of the Woolwich mark can be found on page 53 of my book. Note from whose collection. 


  • 0

#39 Jack Wright

Jack Wright

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 44 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:McLean, VA

Posted 09 December 2018 - 12:50 PM

Thanks, Tom. I would be happy to take some pics, but I don’t know how to post them.
Could you post them if I emailed them to you? My gun does indeed have the Woolwich
mark...
  • 0

#40 TD.

TD.

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 3312 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 09 December 2018 - 01:08 PM

Jack,

PM sent


  • 0