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Any good guesses on how many transferable MP40's in USA?


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I spent a few months looking around for a transferable mp40. I was able to find a few on the market but not a whole lot. Most of what was available was around because it was priced real high. I ended up making a deal on a Wilson tube gun so now I am doing that stamp waiting game.

 

After reading this forum back to like 2005 to learn more about these awesome guns. I am wondering if there are any good estimates on how many transferable MP40's are out there? Between the kit builds, the bring backs and the dewats it seems like there should be a few thousand at least on the market. But they are not commonly for sale so is the supply lower than I think it should be, or do people just hold onto these guns with a death grip?

Does anyone know how many Wilson tubes are out there? Mine is in the 300 range.

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The WILSON MP40 I had was a serial number lower than yours.

I also find it interesting just how few MP-38's I have ever seen, even fewer being offered for sale.

It is unfortunate just how many MP-40's have barrel nuts that were damaged by the use of a PIPE wrench on the flats!

Richard

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Production figures alone should help explain the relative scarcity of MP38s. For the MP40, production was over four million, with only about 40,000 for the MP38. The MP40 was produced until 1944, while MP38 production concluded before the end of 1941.

 

As has always been the case, the NFA registry is considered to be tax information and is thus confidential. We have no idea of what gun types and numbers the registry contains.

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For MPs manufactured between the end of the '68 Ammesty and May, '86 by various shops like Wilson, as an example, there will be shop records indicating the number made and registered. Wilson made their own receiver tubes and early on might have done some cut and welded guns. Charlie Erb made registered tubes and would have the numbers of MPs he built. There are others but research effort is going to be long and hard to track down all the different makers of these guns whether FFLs or private parties.
It is impossible to determine the number of MPs brought back since its was against regulations to bring MGs back under military regulations, but of course many, many were. There are MPs that were legally imported by iindividuals which was legal until GCA'68. Post war imports for the gun retailers contributed a lot of guns as well, but only ATF records would help with sorting the numbers.
Early history of MG registrations as evidenced by registrants' paperwork shows that many MGs of all types were incorrectly identified when registered which further complicates establishing some sort of count with software entries.
ATF's efforts to determine the numbers of various MGs in the NFRTR continue and they have compiled lists of various MGs and it is possible that effort include the MPs.
Production records of MGs have no bearing on how many of particular types of issue MGs might have been registered in the NFRTR. The number of MP38s or MP40s that were registered is totally random and arbitrary regardless of their production numbers.

Another source of counts is from collectors who have participated over many years in the hobby and have tracked various MGs from sales offering, sales, collections, etc. I have tracked a number of different types of MGs and have a good idea about how many have been circulating in the US collector community. Then there are those MGs of which there are inly a few registered examples that have been documented over many years. I have a registered Vietnam bring back example of the Hotchkiss Universal SMG purchased from a B52 mechanic who was stationed in the Philippines and liked reading for stuff. He brought it back with two other SMGs and registered it in the Amnesty. It is apparently the only registered exmaple documented, so far. There are quite a few MGs which are represented by, let's say, less than a hundred examples in the NFRTR that are quite accurately counted by those collector's keeping track of them.

Estimating the number of MP38/40s in the NFRTR is frustrating simply due to lack of any reliable documentation. The NFRTR is likely the most realistic way to find out such stuff but that issue is notoriously low on the priorities of NFA administration. FWIW

Edited by BRMCII
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And we have the thousands buried in basements, attics, walls Lockers, Drums,Barns. closets and even under beds.I an say when i was in bizz which was well over forty years. have had seen at least a 100 and also many other Bring backs 30 cal belt feed, M-60, B.A.R. M3A1, M-2 Carbine. M-16 and a vast array of AK-47 models.and even M-14 and Thompsons. of all models from 1921 ac to model of 1928 Military. and could not do a thing with them..for whatever they have in the register, they have triple not there.

 

and with the current Fiasco/ Blunder in Afghan land we have another 500 thousand plus un accounted for.And some will find a way back here.can you imagine being handed a unissued MP-44 STILL IN WAX GREASE WRAP { USELESS TO YOU.}

 

OR A COLT MONITOR FROM CICERO P.D. in a car truck wrapped in rags..Make Offer...

 

WE WILL NEVER KNOW EVER.

 

Ron K.

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Unfortunately, the NFA '34 renders moot the large number of unregistered MGs in the US.
The relevance of the numbers of types of MGs in the NFRTR really applies only to those that are fully transferable, in my opinion, since they are the most "collectible" with highest value. MGs with other transfers status' are gaining in value as the years go by and their numbers in the NFRTR will be increasingly of interest as well.

The NFA community is owed two further one-month amnesties under the original legislation but that is not going to happen.

I got a Christmas present of a DEWATed 1909 Hotchkiss Portative from my wonderful Grandmother in1957 as a result of her asking me what I wanted. It came from Numerich Arms and I knew she had bought it for me because I could smell the cosmoline one afternoon after entering the house coming home from school. Yeah, I knew that smell from going to gun shows. Wahoo! Damn that was exciting! FWIW

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Anecdotally from what I've seen over the years MP44's seem more common? For all the MP40's you see if you subtract the tube guns/parts kits leaving only original C+R guns they seem to be fewer than MP44's on the market? Figuring out what are "bring backs" vs. what was imported as dewats would be impossible. Documented "bring backs" are pretty rare. Most all of this stuff was brought in by importers like Interarmco back in the day. Frankly without Interarms the guns would be so rare we probably wouldn't have a board forum about it?

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UP UNTIL LAST YEAR a local old fella probably easy around 85 to 90 comes in to local shop with a decent one a few mags and sling. and wants trade the sales guy calls over the owner of shop no paper no nothing old guy mentions ww2 brought back. and it does shoot he tried it decades ago. but ran out of the few rounds he brought back. owner says hit the door and get it out of here. i tell the counter guy make him a $500 buck cash offer for sling and parts and let him leave with the rest. or start ban saw cutting now.

i tell him you will just let a easy couple grand walk out the door and you are making 50 bucks on glock sales?

was ready to hand the guy my card. when Murph wants none of it. get out.

 

another old guy in town has a MG-42 and a 44 from England bringback when he was stationed There. Last time i saw him was 2 years ago SAR SHOW he had some health issues his kid told me well i will take care of pops guns.So as Johnson said yes they are around. however some w/o ammo and mags.it was like trying to buy AK mags and ammo in 1970 in the u.s. red box finnish was all.

 

many who returned between 1968 and 1975 did not think about ammo. EARL in 1971 had a total of 2 ak-47 mags to sell. he said i only can get them from returning vets.

 

yeah after you deal with hundreds of people from around the world and here. You get to deal a lot and see a lot.

sadly at least 80% of the ones i did are no longer around.

 

RON K.

 

p.s. have only seen one MP-38 NOT RIGHT. They are rare. and as JOHNSON SAID many more MP-44;s so we have tons of spare parts for all the transferrable ones.

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Unfortunately, the NFA '34 renders moot the large number of unregistered MGs in the US.

The relevance of the numbers of types of MGs in the NFRTR really applies only to those that are fully transferable, in my opinion, since they are the most "collectible" with highest value. MGs with other transfers status' are gaining in value as the years go by and their numbers in the NFRTR will be increasingly of interest as well.

The NFA community is owed two further one-month amnesties under the original legislation but that is not going to happen.

I got a Christmas present of a DEWATed 1909 Hotchkiss Portative from my wonderful Grandmother in1957 as a result of her asking me what I wanted. It came from Numerich Arms and I knew she had bought it for me because I could smell the cosmoline one afternoon after entering the house coming home from school. Yeah, I knew that smell from going to gun shows. Wahoo! Damn that was exciting! FWIW

THAT IS ONE COOL STORY COSMOLINE> THE GIVEAWAY

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The short answer is: there is really no way to know accurately how many MP40s are in the ATF registry.

 

I spoke to Dan Shea about this very thing just recently and he mentioned that even the ATF is uncertain because many machineguns were registered incorrectly with the wrong model designation. I have several Form 4s myself that show an incorrect model number but that is the official designation, so you can't change it without asking for ATF approval. One can roughly estimate the relative rarity of a said machinegun by how often it comes up for sale. Unfortunately, very rare machineguns are often sold between private parties with no internet or other announcement of the sale making estimating the numbers of transferable examples and fair market value difficult to determine.

 

The only way, I can think of to change the current state of affairs is to make all registered machinegun owners take pictures of said firearms and send them into the ATF which I doubt anyone wants to do voluntarily or otherwise,.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 months later...

Good note about the two remaining amnesties available under the law. I submitted a suggestion to the ATF that they invoke one concurrent with any pending ruling on the pistol braces, but doubt they will consider it. I'll start a new thread about this topic.

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