NFA "approved" terms for Thompsons / Form 4 Correction

[Sandman1957]

Without debating the merits / reasons why there has been a focus on ensuring Form 4's are correct, when a FORM 4 is corrected the pathway is fairly straighforward, albeit convaluded. (ie, sign incorrect items, get the gun, then correct for the record with photos). The process works but is slow and not intuitive.

 

What I would like to establish in this thread is to separate some "collector terms" from 'terms" that SHOULD BE used for NFA Form 4 descriptions. Sort of a "best practices" if you will.

 

This applies to many NFA firearms, but want to start with Thompsons.

If there is interest in this tread, we may need to break it into sub categories for each block. This will highlight some blocks to open the bebate:

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4. Description of Firearm

a. Name and Address of manufacturer and/or Importer of Firearm

 

Should this include subcontractor, or what is stamped on the reciever "exactly" as written?

- Examples for comment, (let's not include debate spacing)

"COLT" or

"COLT'S PATENT FIREARMS MFG. CO. "

HARTFORD, CONN., U.S.A.

 

note: COLT in this case is stamped on the left side of the reciever as the "named" manufacturer, although on the other side of the reciever is:

 

"AUTO-ORDNANCE CORPORATION."

NEW YORK . U.S.A.

 

Both are likely correct, but one may be a "best practice".

 

The related debate for non- COLTS is:

 

(Right side of Reciever)

"AUTO-ORDNACE CORPORATION

BRIDGEPORT, CONNECTICUT. U.S.A."

 

In this case we know S-Serial Numbers, were manufactured by Savage, and A.O. denote Auto-Ord manufacture

 

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In this case I recommend describing the manufactor exactly as stamped on the firearm, use:

 

"COLT'S PATENT FIREARMS MFG. CO. "

HARTFORD, CONN., U.S.A.

 

not "Colt", "COLT", nor "

 

"AUTO-ORDNANCE CORPORATION."

NEW YORK . U.S.A.

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In the case of

 

"AUTO-ORDNACE CORPORATION

BRIDGEPORT, CONNECTICUT. U.S.A."

 

leave it as stamped, not include Savage nor AOC (lnclude this in Serial number description only)

 

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4.

b. Type of Firearm (see instruction 1c) (not very informative)

 

MACHINEGUN, SUBMACHINEGUN, SUB-MACHINEGUN ETC (all may be correct) for NFA description

 

As collectors we know Machinegun can also mean full auto "rifle" Caliber

whereas Submachinegun denotes full auto in "pistol" calibers.

 

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Recommend in this case type of firearm denote types of NFA items such as

 

MACHINEGUN

SHORT BARRELED RIFLE

SHORT BARRELED SHOTGUN

DESTRUCTIVE DEVICE

ANY OTHER WEAPON

 

(LET THE NEXT BLOCK CALIBER SPEAK FOR ITSELF)

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4.

c. Caliber, Gauge or Size

 

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.45 vs 45 vs 45 ACP etc

 

9mm

 

multiple

 

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4.

d. Model (in this case collector descriptions muddy the water)

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Thompson 1921, vs 1921A, vs 1921AC, 1928, 1928AC, 1928A1, 1921/8, 1928 overstamp, 1928 Navy etc

 

U.S. NAVY 1921/8 vs

 

U.S.NAVY

1921/8

 

In this case I would recommend the latter

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I've killed enough time and space on this.

This could help by establishing "best terms of reference" as we individually clean up our Form 4s.

 

We should start with what is "STAMPED" as exactly as it is on the firemarm.

 

Opinions???

 

Sandman1957

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"AUTO-ORDNANCE CORPORATION

WEST HURLEY, NEW YORK, U.S.A."

 

 

 

 

[anjong-ni]

What a great start, Sandman. The ATF should appreciate your efforts on this.

One would like to believe that a computer program, armed with logic like this, and recognition ability, could certainly sort this all out in the future.

How many files don't contain digital photos...or none at all?

The ATF certainly doesn't seem to have this information "at hand".

You'd think they would prefer to have all permanent basic identification info...manufacturers, numbers, X-outs, dents... but not scratches, finish, barrel, etc.

For the moment, why not ask everyone on the NFA List to update with new digital photos showing ALL the info actually stamped on their item?

Then let a program like you suggest sort it all out....Phil

[GUTTERRATT]

I think to get your form 4 to sail through with least amount of friction is to fill it out as close to the original form 4 as possible. This has always worked for me anyway. Edited July 20, 2014 by GUTTERRATT

[reconbob]

Is there/has there been a movement to "correct" incorrect Form 4's? Unless there is a dramatic error on the

Form 4 I agree that the best way to execute a Form 4 is to copy exactly the previous Form 4.

I myself have tried to be a good Samaritan (so to speak). I had a Form 4 gun in my collection for over 30 years.

When it was transferred to me and I got the gun I realized that whoever originally filed the Form (68 Amnesty)

put the drawing number on the bolt as the serial number. I tried to fix it 30 years later when I sold it with

explanations, photos, etc. and the thanks I got for all my trouble was a disapproved transfer. I resubmitted the Form

with the "wrong" number and it went thru right away.

And who is to say that a digital photo is correct? How does anyone know that the photo submitted is in fact

a photo of the gun its claimed to be a photo of? Especially in this day of Photoshop. The ATF has never seen and will never

see in person (at least not anyone knowledgeable ) 99.9% of the guns on the registry.

I don't know if you non-licensed collectors (I.e. all your guns are on Form 4s) ever get checked. But when I get

checked (Class 2) they come in with a print out and want you to hold up the gun so they can read the serial number.

And for 30+ years they read the number on that bolt. They don't look at the gun, they don't examine the gun, and most of the time

the agent doesn't know the difference between a BAR and a MAC-10. Just hold it up so they can read the number.

If you are going to start fussing with "COLT" vs. "COLT PATENT FIREARMS" etc. I think you are just asking

for delayed and disapproved transfers. But hey, if you want to be a good Samaritan like me....go for it.

 

Bob

[Devil Dog 1110]

Using the description on the previous form 4 doesn't seem to work like it used to.

I had a Colt 1928 Navy recently that they made me strike through Navy before they would approve the transfer.

I also had a Colt M16A2 Commando model that was registered like that from the factory- they made me remove Commando on my transfer form.

Thank God I have copies of all the original transfer forms.

[buzz]

I would just use the information written on the gun.

 

It's just a form the ATF uses to identify the gun, it has no real meaning otherwise.

 

Using the info printed on the gun is basically the only way to work with ATF.

 

They will not accept a change to the form without a photo of the gun.

 

They're not going to spend even 2 minutes researching Thompson history.

 

ATF could not care less about the nuances of gun collecting, they just want to make sure that "the forms are correct."

Edited July 20, 2014 by buzz

[Lancer]

My opinion is to let sleeping dogs lie. You run into someone at the ATF that has an agenda and an attemp to to just correct the record could turn into a nightmare.

 

My .02

[mnshooter]

When this happened to me a few years ago (wrong model number listed on the sellers form 4), I called ATF, and somehow got to speak to the head of the technical dept. Forgot his name, but he was very helpful and easy to talk with; somewhat of an actual gun guy, in my estimation. He said to put the identical (incorrect) information on the new form 4, or it would just add an unknown number of months to the transfer. He said I could send in the information, photos, etc. to correct the record, but to do this after I took possession. No matter what, my form 4 does not match what is on the gun -hope to never have to try explaining this to any other law enforcement agents. The seller was someone I really wanted to be done with, otherwise I would have preferred to make the corrections and waited.

 

I'm still wondering if I should even try to nudge that dog.

Will they send an acknowledgement of the change in record?

If I never hear back, and decide to sell, how will I know what to put on the new form 4?

[wwl]

I recently {9 months ago} purchased a .410 H&R Handygun. The form 4 read Shortbarreled shotgun and Any other weapon underlined . The form 4 to me was filed out exactly as the old one. Just rejected by ATF and they wanted "shortbarreled shotgun" lined out and dated and initialed by the transferee. He has complied and refiled. Now the wait begins again. The ATF is completely correct on this one.

[buzz]

When this happened to me a few years ago (wrong model number listed on the sellers form 4), I called ATF, and somehow got to speak to the head of the technical dept. Forgot his name, but he was very helpful and easy to talk with; somewhat of an actual gun guy, in my estimation. He said to put the identical (incorrect) information on the new form 4, or it would just add an unknown number of months to the transfer. He said I could send in the information, photos, etc. to correct the record, but to do this after I took possession. No matter what, my form 4 does not match what is on the gun -hope to never have to try explaining this to any other law enforcement agents. The seller was someone I really wanted to be done with, otherwise I would have preferred to make the corrections and waited.

 

I'm still wondering if I should even try to nudge that dog.

Will they send an acknowledgement of the change in record?

If I never hear back, and decide to sell, how will I know what to put on the new form 4?

/

 

Unless there is some massive mistake on the form that might make things difficult for you down the road, I would just forget it.

 

My 1928 Savage form 4 says colt as the manufacturer.

 

Why should I waste my time trying to get some ATF guy to change it?

 

It's said colt since 1940.

 

The form is for the use of the ATF, not me. If they don't care then why should I?

 

 

I'm not trying to be unfriendly, but I disagree with the whole philosophy of this thread.

 

We are waiting a whole 9 or 10 months now for the forms to get stamped, why would anyone want to add to ATF's workload to change "machinegun" to "sub-machinegun" or "colt" to "auto-ordnance".

 

It's a pointless waste of time, the correction will never be put to any useful purpose.

Edited July 21, 2014 by buzz

[johnsonlmg41]

Sadly,

corrections are not allowed at this time unless the serial number of the gun was incorrect in a transfer. All transfers need to have a serial number and model description as close as possible to that on the ORIGINAL first registration. In some cases NFA branch has requested photos for additional info or clarification, but DO NOT offer it up on your own or you may delay or deny your transfer. If the mfr was listed as "Germany", that's what you need to put down, not the specific mfr that you can see by the code. Navy is allowed if it was on the original form, if it was just an overstamp to 1928, then you need to stick to 1928. The goal is to return the registry to it's original configuration for now, regardless of whether or not small details such as barrel lengths mfr.s, calibers, etc. have changed. The registry has been somewhat bastardized over the years in some cases intentionally, and in some cases by errors or shortcuts and as such the registry is "out of compliance" and they are seeking to correct the paperwork for now so please be patient even though at times it doesn't make sense?

 

This is a government task, don't overthink it.

[wwl]

OPPS---back when I said the transferee had to initial and date the form 4, it was the transferor who had to initial and date. My txing got ahead of my mind.

[wwl]

Back in the early 80s I bought a Colt/Armalite AR15 Model 601 that came on the form as a M16. Because the 601 is a C&R and a m16 is not in about year 2006 I sent in request to change the model to a 601. The ATF was extremely helpful and I sent in photos of the guns nomenclature and ATF sent me a letter stating that they had changed their records and how I should refer to it as a Colt/Armalite and use model 601. Now it is a C&R which is a correct designation. Of course the serial # stayed the same.

[Sandman1957]

Time for wisdom from the Lone Ranger... even he has to agree that "correcting" the forms should be factual, and not what was on the intitial form. Especially since the forms have changed over time.

 

I agree to not waste time over minor changes, but "changes" to Correct" information to "the way it was" is simply wrong and outrageous.

 

At some point, someone under oath will be asked, Mr NFA collector, did you or did you not "willingly and knowingly" sign a false official statement...

 

Trust me, I am a jarhead, I detest paperwork. But forums like this is where we can start to engage reasonable people who can over time make a difference.

 

My personal stance has been, initial whatever they want, etc to get possession. Then follow up with photos to correct the record once you own the firearm. I have had good luck with this. I just transfered a gun last weekend, where the info was corrected AFTER I owned it, had it in my possession, etc. The new Form 4 had the corrections, not simply spelling but, model numbel, overall length and barrel length.

 

That way if I am ever on the stand, I will present exhibit 1, my letter to the NFA Branch detailing what needs to be corrected. Not crossing Recon Bob, as his plight to correct a Serial Number is a completely different issue. That is a nightmare that I have not had to cross.

 

It is refreshing to see that we all are strongly opinionated, as that makes this discussion even more important. No pablum milk toast gents here!

[giantpanda4]

I have been reading this with interest. Wish I had an answer. Maybe BATFE could post what they erally would like us to do.

 

It seems if there was an issue with wanting to update all F4s on record, which is what I think they want to do, they would ask for all of the info on a new F4 and justification of what is not correct at the time of filing. Almost every filing I am aware of lately has been challenged to provide pictures showing OAL, bbl length, s/n, etc. Yeah, photoshop couid come into play here, but why not just give everything you know about the gun on the first filing? Might make the records better, and save time for a second re-file. Thise have taken only a few weeks though.

 

JMHO.

[buzz]

 

 

To be prosecuted for a crime, they have to show a criminal intent.

 

Where is the criminal intent in repeating the gun maker as "Colt" from the previous form?

 

Especially when they won't even accept corrections anyway?

Edited July 23, 2014 by buzz

[TSMGguy]

I think to get your form 4 to sail through with least amount of friction is to fill it out as close to the original form 4 as possible. This has always worked for me anyway.

This will work every time!

 

The form 4 on my NAC stamped M1928A1 lists the manufacturer as Numrich Arms Corporation, though the receiver says Auto Ordnance with a Bridgeport address. Better to stick with what's on the form, I think, without getting creative. If NFA needs photos or clarification, so be it.

[Sandman1957]

The issue recently is the "original" form 4. Filling it out EXACTLY like the one from the guy you are buying it from in many cases is completely different with forced changes.

I have a "forced" correction on a Reising model 50. It now "Correctly" reflects a 20" barrel vs the 11 inches that is approved on the sellers form four. Same with OAL.

 

All the guns I have purchased I only had access to the "previous" form 4, not the "original"...

 

When "forced" to change it, why not make it correct?

[buzz]

Sure, if you're going to make the change you might as well do a good job of it.

 

Most of my commentary in this thread is focused on the fact that you are trying to deal with the ATF.

 

I deal with government agencies all the time as a civil engineer, I am used to just giving them what they ask for and leaving it at that.

 

They want to say a backyard goldfish pond is a waterway for ocean going vessels, fine.

[The Lone Ranger]

Sandman,

 

It's a logical and admirable goal. Probably not a substantial dent in our lifetimes, but if not now to start, then when? Once upon a time it was acceptable, even preferable to make corrections at the time of transfer but that was before the form tsunami. There used to be a couple of gun people in there who would square them away as they passed through - take them off the examiner load and address them separately. Based on what several here on the board and elsewhere have reported that is no more (both people I am referring to transferred out in 2010 which may be part of the change as well as volume). Totally agree - if you get directed to make a change to the form, by all means make it correctly.

[Dolphinvet]

On my last Thompson transfer, they sent it back because on model, I had put "M1 Thompson". They made me change the model to just "M1". I don't know if that is something new, because on the form 4 before me, it was listed as "M1 Thompson". On the 1928 that's in pending right now, I listed the model as a "1928A1". They are getting more picky in my opinion. I think it's to get everything uniform, eventually.

[OldFalGuy]

I just transferred a MG42 that the previous forms stated the manufacturer was ZZZ.

This was a common state manufacturer as after the war we didn't know who CRA or BYF was.

I have seen several german bring backs from MP-38,40 and MG 34 & 42s so described.

Well this transfer something went ooops. NFA Branch wanted the word "German" to replace ZZZ.

I complied to benefit my buyer then called them up. They sure didn't want what was on the receiver which was CRA.

We do the best we can do.

[Waffen Und Bier]

My MP40 lists bnz as the manufacturer, but my other 3 WWII German guns have "WW II German Armory" or some such stuff listed as the manufacturer.

[21 smoker]

A lot of this `correcting the registry` mentality started a few years back when serial numbers were lifted off of entry level MGs,,i.e.MAC 10s,STens,etc. and attached to certain belt feds by some nefarious characters who` woke up the gorilla`....of course this led to closer scrutiny of what actual info was put on the form 4s which in turn made the transfer process a little more dicey....My 21 form 4 lists Colt,Hardford CT.,the Schnellfuhrer form 4 lists WWII GERMANY, the M1928A1 lists Auto Ordnance Corp (Savage Contract) and that has a NAC suffix in the serial number and the BAR 1918A2 NESA is listed as Browning Arms as the manufacturer/importer...so there really is no rhyme or reason how this info was entered or if this is the right time to make corrections imo...