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27 Frames


At around $450 each are they worth it?  

62 members have voted

  1. 1. At around $450 each are they worth it?

    • Yes! It would be worth it. build them ASAP!
      33
    • NO! the price is to high. Build something else that we can use like cocking knobs, selectors and milled ejectors.
      11


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The cost to produce a 27 frame contoured to accept a detachable buttstock, unmodified mag catch and 28 style grip would run quite a bit higher than we initially thought. Need to determine if it is worth producing or if we should move on. Thanks in advance for the imput. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif

 

Damon

 

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Damon,

 

I have seen new condition 28 lower frames go for around that price. Used ones should be around $300 or occassionally less. I doubt you will get enough taker for your business case to build them.

 

But don't get me wrong, they would be nice to know they are available even at $450. You may find a few buyers!

 

Any word on making actuators yet? 21 and 28?

 

My guess is there would be a market for those in the $200 or less range!

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There is NO question that these Frames would be great sellers. Yes, it is worth producing them. There are more owners of the Semi-Auto Thompson than FA Owners. Something to keep in mind. Though I couldn't even imagine any '27 Owner that wouldn't want one! Of course, WE on this forum only account for a very small fraction of Thompson enthusiasts. There are A LOT of folks that would buy these, if advertised in the correct and appropriate places. Shotgun News, Gun List, Thompson Collectors News, Ect. On another note, I haven't seen any used '28 Frames for $300.00 or less. Gun Parts had some Numrich Frames, but they have since sold out. Nor, have a seen any at $450.00! Build them Damon....
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I think they would sell well. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif

 

A Numrich 28 frame costs $276.00. By the time you send it off to be modified, refinished and shipped back. You will probably have nealy $450.00 into the project anyway. I also think that the quality that Damon puts into his stuff is top notch.

 

Damon, you may offer a discount for purchasing a frame, and stock assembly (with your repro stock slide) as a "package deal."

 

All of us 27A1 owners have been waiting for this frame.

 

As we all know, NOTHING for a Thompson (even the semi-autos) is cheap. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/sad.gif

 

Lionhart, Numrich does have the frames back in stock now. I have ordered (and received) one. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif

 

Norm

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Norm, you pretty much said it all. These Frames are what a lot of folks have been waiting a long time for...YEARS....Just imagine if Kahr were building faithfull SA Thompson Creations. Dealers wouldn't be able to keep them in stock! But we all know Kahr doesn't, and neither did WH. Doug Richardson had produced parts for the SA, and they were all great sellers. I think if Damon started these, the demand would be high. Norm, I wasn't aware that Numrich is selling more of those Frames. The last time I looked, they were out. Also, please be advised that the SA Frames that Damon may build are different in that they hang lower, creating an even more authentic Thompson look, and will also be able to take unmodified Magazine Catches to use with unmodified TSMG Mags. Thats right. One wouldn't need to modify their catch in order to use standard Thompson mags!! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif Edited by LIONHART
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Yes, Get to building them PRONTO!!!!!!!!

 

If they are built to take the 21/28 detachable butstock and cut for the 27 internals but the rocker piviot is cut and marked lock/unlock and premodifed so a few parts can be modifed and the %$&$*@$)! third hand is unescessary; HELL YES they are worth producing. Some of us with large hands like the 21/28 style frame as there is more room to get your hand in there. Take them to a few shows and I bet you would get plenty of orders once people try sticking their hand in there and not having the web of their shooting hand feel pinched when they align the sights.

 

If you decide to do this can I pre order?

 

BB

 

Bisley45@hotmail.com

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A 27 frame contoured to accept a detachable buttstock, unmodified mag catch and 28 style grip , this would be great. I could pick up one and swap out my trigger assemble and not have to send my gun off for machining. Also, I'd still have my original frame to put back for the collectors value that the gun would have in the future. I say go for it, build away. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif
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Damon,

There is no collector value in the WH/Kahr version of the Thompson. So any type of customization could not detract from whatever value exists in the guns. As to whether a frame adaptor alone increases the price value, of course not, but in conjunction with other mods, it can only improve on the desirability, or worth, of ownership.

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I forgot to mention that this was directed at the semi auto folks. I doubt any of the lucky full auto owners would be interested in these frames...however if we do produce the 27 frame we will also offer 21/28 frames with the option of custom markings. It is looking like a go but would like to get some more feedback before finalizing the decision.

 

Arthur...don't take things to seriously...life is way to short!

 

 

TN.Frank That was part of the idea...it could not hurt to preserve the original parts.

 

 

Bisley45...Thanks! Only we were not going to include the forward selector hole and markings but offer a upgrade or kit to do away with the third hand thingy.

 

Norm...yes I had such a package deal in mind actually, a complete kit with my parts, some vintage parts and Deerslayer wood. Would you please share your opinion on the WH frame you recently acquired?

 

GiantPanda4...I have looked into actuators and discussed thier production in depth with my folks and Tracie Hill. We all agree it cannot be done for $200. There is a company that produces them for I think $380. This is a more realistic figure for they are delicate to produce.

 

Thanks to everyone for thier feedback so far

 

Damon

 

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QUOTE
There is no collector value in the WH/Kahr version of the Thompson.

 

I would have do disagree with this, Arthur (somewhat.) Allthough the WH/Kahr 27A1 will never be worth as much as the worst condition 21/28, there is already a collector following. The early WH guns with real Lyman sights are sought after by many in the semi-auto relm. The A-5 is also another gun that sells well above the retail price.

 

And to some people's amazement, not everyone strives to own full-auto Thompson. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif They do not have the money or simply do not want to deal with paperwork involoved. Some do not have an option; their state does not allow it.

 

We (the semi-auto owners) understand that the Colt Thompson still reigns as the King of Tommys, but there are many semi-auto fans that enjoy there big, bulky, way-to-long guns at the range.

 

Back to the subject of the Tommygunner frame, it would have the best of both worlds: no modfictions required and solves almost every problem that 27A1 owners run into (as far as the trigger frame goes.)

 

Norm

 

 

 

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damon i will chime in................anything you do will help the thompson legend...........as a full auto owner originally from chicago...................which did not have full auto ownership..................a little tale................

 

 

at the time early seventies,before i went class III............{which later is what i had to do}i purchased a early 27 colt semi auto...............had paperwork signed by a chicago police captain,however when i wanted to get the gun,and make final payment.............i went class three.....and bought a full auto 21colt for $900.00.

 

from L.E.S.in skokie ,il.

 

funny thing, the gun then went to curtis earl{sold}and ended up in marty mandall's shop in scottsdale,az. and since i am in az. you can say the gun followed me...........

 

so you are correct having semi's due to state and federal law's..............and price's............i know alot of people everyday i deal with,who want something nice.as soon as i mention it might cost $10,000.00 and up................

 

they say oh well!!! i can dream..........they have house payment's, kid's in school.........car payment's,have to eat......and all of life's other trail's...................

 

and some like collecting's hot wheel's wink!!

 

so life is too short......................grab the gusto on whatever you have...............and be thankfull you can in this country...........{still}and p.s. build whatever you can when you can..........people will buy it..............just don't get {''Thompson Greed"}a nasty evil................wink!!

 

take care,ron

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Damon,

I think it's a great idea, and would pay off in the end. If it was not for PK, I would have grabbed one sight unseen.

I'm sure with the proper advertising you would sell plenty.

Zamm

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QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Mar 25 2004, 06:34 PM)
There is no collector value in the WH/Kahr version of the Thompson.

Arthur Phlegmenhurler,

 

It's funny . . . my dear old Dad used to say the same things about those FA TSMG's -- Colt's, Savage, etc . . . 50-odd years ago anyway . . .

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For those of us still learning here...what makes these frames different or what purpose are they trying to fill?

 

It's hard to vote if you don't know what you're voting for. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif

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awp101

Good question. The frames are designed to fit the 1927 a-1 semis, to allow them to accept an original detachable stock, grip, and mags. Some desire these features to make their long guns more consistent with the look of the full-autos. The only other alternative would be to have a machinist modify an original 1928 frame to allow them to work with the semi guns. The possible advantages for building new frames, as opposed to modifying the old ones, is that you won't have to alter a limited collectible frame, and you won't have to pay or wait for modifications, requiring you to send your Kahr out. Summed up, the new production frames would be cheaper and convenient.

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Please allow me to point out a potential downside to the installation and long-term use of the non-original frame. The wear patterns to the finish on the receiver and original frame will eventually not match. Thus, if the receiver and original frame are, in the future, rejoined, an obvious mismatch which may be unappealing to a potential purchaser will be apparent.

 

Just something to think about.

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I seriously doubt the wear patterns would be all that noticable. Nor, do I think anybody would really care. I'm sure the new Frames would be blued to match the factory blue pretty closely. Also, I doubt that most owners would even keep their original Frames. I imagine that folks would sell their old Frames to offest the cost of the new one. What sets these Frames apart from the rest? Let me tell you..1) These Frames are copies of the '21/28 Trigger Housings. Allowing your SA '27 to appear just like the Full Auto TSMG. 2) They accept an original '21/28 Rear Grip. 3) Just like an '21/28 Frame, these will accept an original Detachable Buttstock. 4) These will also take an original UNMODIFIED '21/28 Magazine Catch, that will work with UNMODIFIED original Thompson Magazines. No more using modified WH/Kahr Mags. 5) These Trigger Housings will hang lower, creating that authentic Thompson look! 6) What do I mean by "Hang Lower"? Simple. When WH designed the Semi-Auto Thomspon, the Receivers were reduced in height by one-tenth inch. They did this to eliminate persons from installing FA Bolts, ect. By doing this, the Trigger Housings (Frames) mounts one-tenth higher on the SA Receivers. This has caused Drum fitting problems, and Magazines must be modified in order to compensate for the height reduction. NOW, Damons' Frames will be made to hang one-tenth inch lower. This will solve the problems of fitting Drums/Magazines, plus creating that proper Thompson SMG look that were all fond of. The original one-tenth height reduction on the SA Receivers are quite noticable. If one has a '27 next to an original '21/28 one could easily tell a big difference. With these new Frames, the original look of the TSMG Receiver/Frame for YOUR '27 will be intact. Even using a modified '28 Frame one still has to modify Magazines, or modify the Magazine Catch since there still is a height problem. Once Damon introduces these new Trigger Housings, these will be the BEST product EVER developed for the WH/Kahr Semi-Auto Thompsons! Edited by LIONHART
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Reisingstar,

Send that puppy to PK for his most excellent sight riviting treatment.

Never a problem again!

Zamm

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I know it is probably an economic issue, but I would want the hold open feature in the selector hole, as some have done with their modified frames. Maintaining that authentic look would be a priority feature and I would certainly be willing to pay the extra bucks for it. Having said that, it would be a difficult decision. The added .1" would go a long way toward tilting the scales in favor, even without the simulated selector hole.

 

Little off the subject, I know Dave has been working on spring & buffer modifications, for easier pulling of the bolt. I think that is a major need to make the Kahr transformation complete. No pressure intended, but I wonder if anyone has heard anymore about that project.

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I would like to divide this into two sections.

 

First, the desire to use the ’28 SMG detachable stock has been #1 on the semi auto owners wish list since these guns were introduced; and rightly so. Attempts to accomplish this have ranged from the ungainly NAC adapter (offered soon after the guns) to some very nicely done alterations that come very close to the real ’28 SMG frame (I did my first one in ’76). While a nice conversion can actually be accomplished for less money, there is definitely a market for an “off the shelf” product, and such would be welcomed.

 

The second change being discussed is not so simple. It should be noted that the infamous .10” that separates the FA and SA guns was taken from the square, rearward part of the receiver and bolt, not the frame. The front part of the receiver that accepts the round “stem” of the bolt remained unchanged. The SA frame is basically the same as the FA part (with small modifications). This allowed the use of modified surplus FA parts in the early design (did you know the first SA sears were made by cutting a notch into FA sear levers?). The intent of the .10” change was to preclude a FA bolt being used in the SA receiver.

 

Because the top plane of the frame is the lower surface upon which the square part of the bolt rides, the relationship of the fire control components contained in the frame to this surface is important. As the receiver was shortened, the fire control components and frame (in effect) rose of necessity, taking with them the magazine catch. This necessitated the use of modified box magazines or a modification of the mag catch because the top of the box magazine stops against the receiver. It had no effect on drums as the drum slots that position the feed lips in relation to the bolt stem are cut into the receiver and were not moved. The lateral clearance slots in the frame for the drum mag catch protrusions were lowered, however.

 

Some thoughts on lowering the frame to compensate for the magazine catch position: The portion of the frame that contains the fire control parts can not be changed, as these parts would not then be able to interface with the sear, or bolt. The only part that could be functionally lowered would be the magazine catch. The shape of the magazine catch is such that it shadows the trigger guard cutout on the left side. If the catch is lowered on it’s own, it will intrude into the trigger guard .10”. If the trigger guard cut out is lowered in order to compensate, the top .10” of the trigger will be buried in the frame. Neither option would seem to offer much in the way of improved esthetics, and having .10” less trigger to pull seems awkward too.

 

All this assumes that a stock SMG magazine catch is to be used on the new frame, without modification. I am not sure what the answer to this problem may be, if there is one. It would appear to me that some compromise is still needed, and I am not convinced that there is anything better than simply lowering the engaging pin on the magazine catch, as has been done for years.

 

The above is simply the ramblings of an old man on a spring day. I wish Damon all success.

 

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