spitfiresubgun Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 (edited) Hello everyone, I need some of your help. I need to figure out what percentage ( Value ) to assign the loss of an auction. I bid and won but when sent the firearm, the dealer shipped the box separately and mis labeled the address. Now lost for ever this unique firearm box for the Eagle Mark II open bolt, semi-auto Thompson look-alike made in the late 60's. Listed as a rare collectors item my assessment when bidding was the box was worth 13 the total price of the auction which started out at $995 and wound up at $1225. He offered 10% back! But if this were any other manufactured brand's box the were made in the tens to hundreds of thousands. But this is specific to Eagle Arms of Stratford Conn. Production numbers certainly under 10,000 exact amount still researching. It was to be my second safe queen. My first is a NIB Colt Double eagle Officers model in .45acp. So, Why this firearm! It's a long story, But I compete with a Spitfire in local Florida matches and I go to the October, Knob Creek Machinegun Shoot. I have owned it for 20 years and in the course of researching it for information and parts and any history. I have come across it's predecessors and it's variants and wound up collecting them as well as saving any info and upgrade I ahve found the make the Spitfire a more reliable shooting platform to a website for all to view. So in the real world if you bought a firearm, like this and the box was lost in shipping what would you want back for the value of the original box? http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm14/SpitfireSD/NIBEagle.jpg http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm14/Sp...SD/NIBEagle.jpg Edited September 6, 2008 by spitfiresubgun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted September 7, 2008 Report Share Posted September 7, 2008 spitfiresubgun, Sorry to hear about the loss. Perhaps the box could be tracked down? The seller's 10% offer may be reasonable. Original boxes are desirable collector's items, however it all depends upon what kind of firearm it is, its age, etc. His 10% offer is reasonable, and maybe it should be 15% or 20%, but the only way to find out would be to return the firearm, receive a full refund, and let him sell it again. It's going to be difficult to determine the value of a box for such a firearm. There's a lot more activity with Colt or Smith and Wesson boxes, which are always desirable items to obtain with a gun, and usually add at least 10% and maybe much more, again depending upon make, age, and scarcity. Just my opinion... David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer Posted September 7, 2008 Report Share Posted September 7, 2008 Is he offering 10% of your $1225 back (you keep the gun)? He's an idiot if he didn't insure both packages for actual value when shipped (of course insurance doesn't pay for stupidity very often. The post office should be able to track it down. Submit paperwork, sometimes these things can be found. Idiots should pay for their mistakes. Have the box appraised by somebody and get full value for the box, or send back the gun and get a full refund (including your shipping). Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reconbob Posted September 7, 2008 Report Share Posted September 7, 2008 What do you think the box is worth? It sounds like you think its worth a heck of a lot more than the 10% ($122.50) the guy is offfering. So seriously - do you think the box is worth $200? $300?...more? I don't think thats reasonable. I'd take the $122.50 and be glad the guy offered it. Or, if you're totally steamed over the situation return the gun for a refund. Just my opinion... Bob Quick shipping-a-gun catastrophe story...years back a friend of mine is traveling, finds a primo WWII German G-43 rifle. Buys it on the spot and tells the guy to ship it to his dealer. The rifle shows up in a short box. When he opened it he found the seller had sawed off the buttstock at the grip so the rifle would fit in the box! I am not making this up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted September 7, 2008 Report Share Posted September 7, 2008 Quick shipping-a-gun catastrophe story...years back a friend of mine is traveling, finds a primo WWII German G-43 rifle. Buys it on the spot and tells the guy to ship it to his dealer. The rifle shows up in a short box. When he opened it he found the seller had sawed off the buttstock at the grip so the rifle would fit in the box! I am not making this up! That story makes my butt pucker! Norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilOhio Posted September 7, 2008 Report Share Posted September 7, 2008 Spitfiresubgun, Do you know for certain that there was an original box, unique to that gun design? If so, do you know exactly what it looked like and what markings would connect it with the manufacturer and to the Eagle Carbine? I ask because I know for certain how these guns were being sold new, between about 1963 and 1965, at Hunter's Haven, by prominent dealer Johnny Richards, in Alexandria, Virginia. There was no unique original box. Each gun was protected by a folded piece of gray corrugated cardboard, which had a single wide piece of cellophane tape holding it around the gun. It was strictly a throw-away. These were sent to the dealer in some other sort of outer shipping box, not unique to the gun. These guns were, I believe sold in far fewer numbers than your 10,000 figure. The number was so low that I would not think the manufacture would go to the expense of having a special box made. But he might have had a label printed. Thus I would have to question the value of the box, unless a very few really unique ones were made, which I don't even know about. Those would, of course, be more valuable. I can't imagine any stretch of the imagination where the box for this particualr model of firearm would comprise 10% of its value. I would instantly accept the more-than-generous offer of a 10% price refund. By no means would this box, if it existed, be worth $123, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giantpanda4 Posted September 7, 2008 Report Share Posted September 7, 2008 http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=108825984 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfiresubgun Posted September 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 Spitfiresubgun, Do you know for certain that there was an original box, unique to that gun design? If so, do you know exactly what it looked like and what markings would connect it with the manufacturer and to the Eagle Carbine? I ask because I know for certain how these guns were being sold new, between about 1963 and 1965, at Hunter's Haven, by prominent dealer Johnny Richards, in Alexandria, Virginia. There was no unique original box. Each gun was protected by a folded piece of gray corrugated cardboard, which had a single wide piece of cellophane tape holding it around the gun. It was strictly a throw-away. These were sent to the dealer in some other sort of outer shipping box, not unique to the gun. These guns were, I believe sold in far fewer numbers than your 10,000 figure. The number was so low that I would not think the manufacture would go to the expense of having a special box made. But he might have had a label printed. Thus I would have to question the value of the box, unless a very few really unique ones were made, which I don't even know about. Those would, of course, be more valuable. I can't imagine any stretch of the imagination where the box for this particualr model of firearm would comprise 10% of its value. I would instantly accept the more-than-generous offer of a 10% price refund. By no means would this box, if it existed, be worth $123, in my opinion. PhilOhio The picture I have in my initial post shows the Eagle in a cardboard box with a cookie cutter like outline of the Receiver/Stock, Barrel and two magazine cut outs along with the mag loader. Unlike the Thompson box giantpanda4 sent in a link on gunbroker the Eagle box is a much detailed and unique item. I acknowledge that there is a smaller fan base for this particular firearm But if a rare Navy Thompson or part for one came up for auction yawl would pull out the deep check book for an item you really want. So would I and the other collectors of this firearm and its variants to complete or add to our collection. Would I pay $125 for that box YES, THE F**K I WOULD!!! But I already considered that into my bidding and it was worth $400 more than the firearm by itself if you figure an open bolt firearm is worth about $600 to 800 depending on the condition. Also the dates you are referring to are for the production of the first series of firearm the Eagle Carbine, which I have two in the serial range of 006X and 17XX. The Eagle Mark II and I also have two, that I am are in the serial range of 257XX and 266XX. Also on the Eagle it says it is patented on the receiver and it was patented in 1966, they wouldn't have the patent number before the began production. or say patent pending it says " patented " Oh, I have..ben starting a Noah's Ark of firearms...... two Spitfires Carbines two Volunteer Carbines two Volunteer MK III two Commando MK 45's two Commando MK 9mm two Commando MKk V one Manchester MK 45 one Manchester MK 45 pistol two Colt double eagles By the way, They were unable to locate it at the post office. Since the dealer did not send it with tracking or delivery conformation. I have a copy of his receipt it looks like he sent it but after speaking with my mail man and the people that replace him on his day off no one can remember delivering a box the size of a truck radiator (which what it was shipped in) to my house or any of my neighbors! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21 smoker Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 It seems your problem is with the US Postal Service.You have the shipping receipt proving the seller lived up to his side of the deal. Did you specify how you wanted this box shipped?If this item was insured it would have been interesting how much the postal service would have compensated you.If this firearm is not worth 90% of your bid price than return it for a full refund.Shit happens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 seems like if you don't get the box, return for full refund.the dealer held up his end, and shipped it all.and if the gun is what he says it was.>then it's up to you.{ also why did he not pack the gun in the box and ship it in a larger box.}>if he had the gun in the original box to begin with< heck i've shipped many m1-d sniper garands in the original dcm/cmp boxes'.and they are a pain also. good luck with them finding the box.it will be no use to anybody at the post office. unless they have a closet group of spitfire collector's. check out a {original }less then 100 produced russian s.v.d. box for a pain to ship.{ i know i had four to get out of here}maybe you will luck out and they will return address it.or it will arrive in another week. keep the faith. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilOhio Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 Spitfiresubgun, I think the first two serial numbers you mention are from the pre-'66 time frame of my original post. Sounds like the lost box is the real thing, and not one I knew about. I certainly hope it turns up, and there is a chance it will, unless the incorrect recipient decides it is something too unimportant to bother with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfiresubgun Posted September 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2008 (edited) Spitfiresubgun, I think the first two serial numbers you mention are from the pre-'66 time frame of my original post. ...Sounds like the lost box is the real thing, and not one I knew about. Yes, and the early Eagles had a different mounting design of the barrel to the upper receiver. The barrel was threaded into the barrel collar, which also had a set screw to hold it in place. While the Mark II had a two part barrel collar. the male part was mounted in the receiver tube and held the bolt ,guide rods and springs to the frame. The barrel was not threaded rather it has a retaining ring and the female part of the barrel collar brings the two parts together with a small guide pin to line the barrel straight. MY point exactly, It in itself is a unique item! Colt21a Yes the post offices on both ends have been unable to do a thing. You know why he shipped it all in separate boxes Size and weight! He set a price for shipping $25.00 The box I received the Eagle in was 21L x 8W x6H with the barrel stock and receiver separate it fits in that small box. the original had to be at least 30L X 24W X 4D Eventhough he went over his budget shipping separately He probably WAS going to save some money. Along with his assurances that this would not be a problem, I let him ship this way but he still should have insured and tracked the shipment. I won't ever let this happen again! What sucks also he lives 200+ miles away! I was considering the drive over there but with gas and at the time my left hip for some reason, didn't want to make the trip, very sorry I didn't Edited September 9, 2008 by spitfiresubgun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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